TonyWilliams

I always thought having any "screen name" was petty and disingenuous. If I have something to say, I'm more than happy to put my name to it.

deltabound

I agree with everything you just wrote.

Speaking of fatigue, the navy recently had a ship run aground due primarily to fatigued crews on undermanned ships. This article has this to say regarding fatigue on ships: (excerpted only)



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But endemic weariness isn’t just unpleasant. It can be deadly, said Capt. Nicholas Davenport, a fatigue expert with the Naval Safety Center.

“Fatigue affects mental capability in many different ways. The most obvious is where people just fall asleep — they’re not functional at all. We also know that these little ‘micro-sleeps’ go on, periods of seconds in the sleep mode, and a person is not aware of that. People can actually be asleep in those seconds. The more and more fatigued they get, their higher-level cognitive function degrades in a lot of strange ways."

“In the past, we’ve kind of had this heroic mentality that says, ‘We’re well trained, we’re drilled, we’re professional,’” Davenport said. “‘Yeah, we’re gonna be tired, we’re fatigued, but we know how to manage it.’ But the science, in fact, shows us that’s not true. As people get more and more fatigued, they do have degradation of their performance in a whole variety of ways.”

Lean manning saps morale, puts sailors at risk - Navy News, news from Iraq - Navy Times

rvr350

Just read the AP press this afternoon. First, the CVR only provides the last 30 min. of the tape. Secondly, One of the two pilots, first officer Richard I. Cole, said that wasn't they weren't sleeping. "I can assure you none of us was asleep," Cole told ABC News.

Keep flamin' on!

Fly4hire

I never implied there was a "justification", I said there is probably much more to this than they simply got distracted and failed to follow procedures. There has been tremendous change in procedures for the N pilots, with all of it train by distance learning, and the first actual performance of a new procedure when you do it in the CP for the first time. FMS programming protocols have changed. Lot's of little things that can add up to cause normal cues that we rely on to be missing or changed.

I'm neither defending nor chastising the crew. We don't know the whole story yet. I'm willing to wait and hear what the professional investigators come up with.

Fly4hire

duplicate post

KC10 FATboy

Ironically, in many of the blogs and comment sections of the online news outlets, I'm seeing a lot of people saying that airline pilots aren't paid what they should be, our companies have treated us like crap, we are so beaten down that we simply don't care anymore. Wow ....

Fly4hire

They can extract well past the last 30 minutes.....

IC ALL

Mod note:

Please cut out the bashing and name calling. Thanks.

Green Banana

Sorry Dad.

captjns

The crew admitted to participating in a heated discussion. They lost their situational awareness during their so-called heated discussion. They put their passengers, who paid good money for safe conduct of passage from SAN to MSP at risk.

I'm sorry but neophyte rookies such as Tsquare, Clamp, MD92 have a hard sell in convincing me that there was no wrong committed here. OK guys, convince the public that after this episode, pilots are underpaid. Convince the public that pilots are the most disciplined human beings on the planet. Can you do this after this latest event? How can you counter the news media after all the negative publicity? Don't pull the fatigue card... cause that ain't gonna work after the crew admitted to being involved in a heated discussion.

Tell you what... if the FAA, and the NTSB states the contrary, I'll buy the next round of drinks.

I'm sick and tired of the cliché... "By the grace of ......" Karma.... it can happen to you".

Now, can someone, someone, please explain how in the absence of radio contact for over one hour let alone flying past your top of descent point, can happen to a crew that follows proper discipline, and company SOPs? Better yet... can anyone explain why those who are discipline don't find themselves in this situation?