If AirTran Strikes ?
11-09-2009 | 09:38 AM
#41
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From: undefined
Look up section 065 part 4 of the ALPA administrative policy.
"D. PILOT GROUPS FLYING ROUTE OF STRUCK PILOTS
SOURCE Board 1978
In the event of a strike by members of ALPA, and any other carrier operates over the struck carrier's routes and, as a response to such strike, assumes the customary work of the struck carrier, all members shall respect the picket lines of striking members if in the judgment of the Executive Council and respective Master Executive Councils such observance is necessary to the most effective prosecution of the strike.
E. ROUTES OF STRUCK CARRIER FLOWN BY ALPA REPRESENTED AIRLINE
SOURCE Board 1984; AMENDED - Board 1994
1. The Board of Directors reaffirms, in the strongest terms, that the Constitution and By Laws provides in Articles VIII and XIX for action against ALPA members, LECs or MECs who willfully participate with their managements to the detriment of this union.
2. In those cases or situations where the President, National Officers, Executive Council or Executive Board determine that one ALPA pilot group/actions would injure a brother ALPA pilot group, and that the offending pilot group does have other alternatives, upon that determination, the President will exercise this Board of Directors resolve to implement Article VIII and Article XIX of the Constitution and By Laws.
3. In the event of a legally called strike, the President, with approval of the Executive Council, and subject to Article IV, Section 2 of the Constitution and By Laws, may require a cooperative job action to prevent other ALPA pilot groups from working to the detriment of the original striking pilots. Subject to the approvals required by Article IX, Section 7 of the Constitution and By Laws, those pilots involved in this cooperative job action will be eligible for strike benefits and the full and immediate support of the Association.
F. STRUCK AIRLINE PROTECTION FROM INCREASED FLYING BY ALPA MEMBERS
SOURCE Executive Board May 1979; AMENDED - Board 1994
The following shall govern in the administration of this policy:
1. Definition. An MEC from a struck airline is any MEC whose membership is not working and/or who are furloughed due to a work stoppage caused by any labor dispute on its airline.
2. Assistance to Pilots Stranded Away from Domicile by a Strike. All MECs and LECs should, so far as is practical, assist ALPA members from a struck carrier stranded away from their home domiciles.
3. The MEC of a struck airline may request compliance with the following policy: Non Extension of Flight Hours. MECs will not amend their current agreements to extend their flight hours above existing contractual maximums so as to take advantage of a labor dispute on another carrier represented by ALPA. In the event that cabotage is instituted, the President may suspend the provisions of this policy for the duration of the cabotage."
"D. PILOT GROUPS FLYING ROUTE OF STRUCK PILOTS
SOURCE Board 1978
In the event of a strike by members of ALPA, and any other carrier operates over the struck carrier's routes and, as a response to such strike, assumes the customary work of the struck carrier, all members shall respect the picket lines of striking members if in the judgment of the Executive Council and respective Master Executive Councils such observance is necessary to the most effective prosecution of the strike.
E. ROUTES OF STRUCK CARRIER FLOWN BY ALPA REPRESENTED AIRLINE
SOURCE Board 1984; AMENDED - Board 1994
1. The Board of Directors reaffirms, in the strongest terms, that the Constitution and By Laws provides in Articles VIII and XIX for action against ALPA members, LECs or MECs who willfully participate with their managements to the detriment of this union.
2. In those cases or situations where the President, National Officers, Executive Council or Executive Board determine that one ALPA pilot group/actions would injure a brother ALPA pilot group, and that the offending pilot group does have other alternatives, upon that determination, the President will exercise this Board of Directors resolve to implement Article VIII and Article XIX of the Constitution and By Laws.
3. In the event of a legally called strike, the President, with approval of the Executive Council, and subject to Article IV, Section 2 of the Constitution and By Laws, may require a cooperative job action to prevent other ALPA pilot groups from working to the detriment of the original striking pilots. Subject to the approvals required by Article IX, Section 7 of the Constitution and By Laws, those pilots involved in this cooperative job action will be eligible for strike benefits and the full and immediate support of the Association.
F. STRUCK AIRLINE PROTECTION FROM INCREASED FLYING BY ALPA MEMBERS
SOURCE Executive Board May 1979; AMENDED - Board 1994
The following shall govern in the administration of this policy:
1. Definition. An MEC from a struck airline is any MEC whose membership is not working and/or who are furloughed due to a work stoppage caused by any labor dispute on its airline.
2. Assistance to Pilots Stranded Away from Domicile by a Strike. All MECs and LECs should, so far as is practical, assist ALPA members from a struck carrier stranded away from their home domiciles.
3. The MEC of a struck airline may request compliance with the following policy: Non Extension of Flight Hours. MECs will not amend their current agreements to extend their flight hours above existing contractual maximums so as to take advantage of a labor dispute on another carrier represented by ALPA. In the event that cabotage is instituted, the President may suspend the provisions of this policy for the duration of the cabotage."
So, what i got from this, is if "anbody" flies our routes, they are scabs, but if you flew struck work from, say JB or AA, well, we'll look the other way.
11-09-2009 | 03:22 PM
#42
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From: Recovering Airline Pilot
As for going out on strike...if it can happen within six months, as you say, everyone best be putting away money NOW. You and I both know that's not going to happen, and after the novelty of the first "day off" wears off, you can bet your MEC will be getting legions of phone calls from over-extended pilots clamoring for "any deal" when they realize how close to paycheck to paycheck they've actually been living.
This isn't a dig at AT pilots in particular, but pilots in general. Many scream "Strike strike", but are woefully unprepared to follow through.
Nu
This isn't a dig at AT pilots in particular, but pilots in general. Many scream "Strike strike", but are woefully unprepared to follow through.
Nu
Not sure where you're getting that from.
11-10-2009 | 06:03 AM
#43
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From: What day is it?
If a carrier of any significant size tried this then a injunction would be issued immediately and our right to secondary boycott would be lost forever. This is why people like the attorneys at ALPA that you attack are responsible for providing advice on this stuff rather than angry former reps like you.
It DID happen. When Atlas; working hand in hand with the ALPA President, shut down their operations in support of Polar. While it took longer than anyone ever figured for management to get their act together and find a judge to issue the TRO; it forced the issue in a Federal Court over "no strike" language.
Let me say that again so you understand...WE SHUT DOWN ANOTHER CARRIER IN SUPPORT OF ONE ON STRIKE...WE WANTED THE INJUCTION...WE PLANNED IT THAT WAY.
Guess what genius? WE WON.
We won the right for any pilot group to refuse to cross another pilot group's (or for that matter any union's) LEGAL picket line. Which means, as the ruling was interpreted in the final hearing, that if a pilot group puts up a picket line at an airport...and the union declares the airport as "struck property," then we have the right to refuse to cross if we have concerns about safety or retribution.
It was the FIRST time in the history of ALPA that an airline operating under a seperate contract shut down in sympathy. And the position was UPHELD by the Federal District Court of New York.
And it was done by the Atlas pilots, Atlas MEC, the ALPA President and a very, very sharp ALPA lawyer.
BTW...looks like the IBT pulled a hat trick. In less than six weeks, they got a contract with no concessions after a strike at Amerijet, got a real nice one for ABX with more recalls and growth and landed a really nice one for AirTran mechanics that preserve jobs and curb outsourcing of jobs.
While ALPA raided a IBT carrier by promising to sign a concessionary, whipsaw contract that the IBT said they would not, because doing so would negatively impact pilots regardless of union affiliation.
(Oh yeah...those jobs and jets they would have gotten? ABX.)
11-10-2009 | 01:35 PM
#45
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From: Recovering Airline Pilot
Well, thanks junior. You just proved the point that you should have more experience before you post.
It DID happen. When Atlas; working hand in hand with the ALPA President, shut down their operations in support of Polar. While it took longer than anyone ever figured for management to get their act together and find a judge to issue the TRO; it forced the issue in a Federal Court over "no strike" language.
Let me say that again so you understand...WE SHUT DOWN ANOTHER CARRIER IN SUPPORT OF ONE ON STRIKE...WE WANTED THE INJUCTION...WE PLANNED IT THAT WAY.
Guess what genius? WE WON.
It DID happen. When Atlas; working hand in hand with the ALPA President, shut down their operations in support of Polar. While it took longer than anyone ever figured for management to get their act together and find a judge to issue the TRO; it forced the issue in a Federal Court over "no strike" language.
Let me say that again so you understand...WE SHUT DOWN ANOTHER CARRIER IN SUPPORT OF ONE ON STRIKE...WE WANTED THE INJUCTION...WE PLANNED IT THAT WAY.
Guess what genius? WE WON.
And you call that mess a victory? What a joke.
While ALPA raided a IBT carrier by promising to sign a concessionary, whipsaw contract that the IBT said they would not, because doing so would negatively impact pilots regardless of union affiliation.
11-11-2009 | 02:53 AM
#46
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From: What day is it?
PCL_128 said:
Yes, you "won," alright. You got a judge to say that a picket line is only legitimate if there are actually pilots on the physical property. He ruled that a picket line isn't an idea, but a physical line. That could easily come back to bite us in the ass, gramps. Not to mention that you've completely glossed over the fact that you used that horrible ruling to your benefit and continued to operate flights when the Polar pilots weren't able to put up physical picket lines, even though they declared the airport to be struck work. The result was accusations by Polar pilots of Atlas pilots being scabs.
And you call that mess a victory? What a joke.
Nothing but lies.
And one person on the location constitutes the legitimate picket line. In other words, one pilot at the location with a picket sign means the location is struck. Sounds to me like you're really in bed with management.
As to you comments about Atlas pilots; you should get your facts straight before you end up in a legal crack with no ALPA lawyer to support you. Atlas pilots flew Atlas flights for Atlas customers. Polar made charges and an ALPA Alternate Dispute Resolution Board made up of two retired and very respected former ALPA National officers, fully exonerated the Atlas pilots. Dig back through your magazines. ALPA was required to post the notification there and on the website.
See, that's the nasty little problem with facts. When they're in writing, you can say what you want, but they are what they are. Especially when they are Federal rulings or legally binding findings of fact.
If you want to go down that road and slander them, I'm sure there are a few Atlas pilots (one who has pockets deeper than ALPA) who will be only too happy to have their lawyers contact yours and explain the terms slander and defamation. You have a history of crossing that line about some people.
That's the bad thing about lawyers too. The good ones never ask a question unless they know the answer in advance. Cousin Brucie could take a lesson.
But hey…enough of that. Let’s get back to the real issue. Outsourcing. IBT, APA, SWAPA and CAPA have all been out front and have had a lot of success on Capitol Hill fighting it. IBT even has gotten it stopped at Frontier and has gotten UAL to begin ending it as well. Even the new IBT contract at AirTran addresses it.
Even though they just closed three new contracts in the past few weeks and have a couple more in the lineup, I’m sure they’d be happy to come down to support the AirTran pilots call to end outsourcing of your jobs. The way IBT, APA, CAPA and the rest see it, outsourcing is outsourcing…regardless of your union pin or if you are an airline pilot, or as you say…
“a truck driver.”
Yes, you "won," alright. You got a judge to say that a picket line is only legitimate if there are actually pilots on the physical property. He ruled that a picket line isn't an idea, but a physical line. That could easily come back to bite us in the ass, gramps. Not to mention that you've completely glossed over the fact that you used that horrible ruling to your benefit and continued to operate flights when the Polar pilots weren't able to put up physical picket lines, even though they declared the airport to be struck work. The result was accusations by Polar pilots of Atlas pilots being scabs.
And you call that mess a victory? What a joke.
Nothing but lies.
And one person on the location constitutes the legitimate picket line. In other words, one pilot at the location with a picket sign means the location is struck. Sounds to me like you're really in bed with management.
As to you comments about Atlas pilots; you should get your facts straight before you end up in a legal crack with no ALPA lawyer to support you. Atlas pilots flew Atlas flights for Atlas customers. Polar made charges and an ALPA Alternate Dispute Resolution Board made up of two retired and very respected former ALPA National officers, fully exonerated the Atlas pilots. Dig back through your magazines. ALPA was required to post the notification there and on the website.
See, that's the nasty little problem with facts. When they're in writing, you can say what you want, but they are what they are. Especially when they are Federal rulings or legally binding findings of fact.
If you want to go down that road and slander them, I'm sure there are a few Atlas pilots (one who has pockets deeper than ALPA) who will be only too happy to have their lawyers contact yours and explain the terms slander and defamation. You have a history of crossing that line about some people.
That's the bad thing about lawyers too. The good ones never ask a question unless they know the answer in advance. Cousin Brucie could take a lesson.
But hey…enough of that. Let’s get back to the real issue. Outsourcing. IBT, APA, SWAPA and CAPA have all been out front and have had a lot of success on Capitol Hill fighting it. IBT even has gotten it stopped at Frontier and has gotten UAL to begin ending it as well. Even the new IBT contract at AirTran addresses it.
Even though they just closed three new contracts in the past few weeks and have a couple more in the lineup, I’m sure they’d be happy to come down to support the AirTran pilots call to end outsourcing of your jobs. The way IBT, APA, CAPA and the rest see it, outsourcing is outsourcing…regardless of your union pin or if you are an airline pilot, or as you say…
“a truck driver.”
Last edited by ATCsaidDoWhat; 11-11-2009 at 03:38 AM.
11-11-2009 | 03:15 AM
#47
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From: Flying the SEC
Ok, so let me get this straight. If AT goes on strike and Delta puts a 757 on the ATL-SAT route that both companies serve to handle the increase in demand, that is struck work and the 757 pilots should refuse to fly?
11-11-2009 | 03:46 AM
#48
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From: What day is it?
Satchip, your question frame the issue perfectly. ALPA's legal determination is that there is no such thing as "struck property" from this point. If you as a passenger have flown Airline X between two cities for years and Airline X goes on strike; if you choose now to go to Airline Y to fly, can the pilots of Airline X call the pilots of Airline Y scabs? Can Airline Y refuse the new passenger?
No, they can't they can't refuse the flying. Same with cargo. A cargo customer has the right to move their business anytime they want to any carrier. What can be done with cargo, as we saw with Atlas and recently at Amerijet, crews can scrutinize each cargo airbill and refuse to carry cargo that was consigned to the striking carrier and on their aircraft.
What CAN'T be done is for Airline Y to come onto X'x property and use any of their equipment, gates or otherwise. Just like if a cargo carrier showed up on another carriers ramp and carried their branded cargo.
Hope that helps.
Last edited by ATCsaidDoWhat; 11-11-2009 at 04:33 AM.
11-11-2009 | 05:12 AM
#49
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From: Flying the SEC
Satchip, your question frame the issue perfectly. ALPA's legal determination is that there is no such thing as "struck property" from this point. If you as a passenger have flown Airline X between two cities for years and Airline X goes on strike; if you choose now to go to Airline Y to fly, can the pilots of Airline X call the pilots of Airline Y scabs? Can Airline Y refuse the new passenger?
No, they can't they can't refuse the flying. Same with cargo. A cargo customer has the right to move their business anytime they want to any carrier. What can be done with cargo, as we saw with Atlas and recently at Amerijet, crews can scrutinize each cargo airbill and refuse to carry cargo that was consigned to the striking carrier and on their aircraft.
What CAN'T be done is for Airline Y to come onto X'x property and use any of their equipment, gates or otherwise. Just like if a cargo carrier showed up on another carriers ramp and carried their branded cargo.
Hope that helps.
No, they can't they can't refuse the flying. Same with cargo. A cargo customer has the right to move their business anytime they want to any carrier. What can be done with cargo, as we saw with Atlas and recently at Amerijet, crews can scrutinize each cargo airbill and refuse to carry cargo that was consigned to the striking carrier and on their aircraft.
What CAN'T be done is for Airline Y to come onto X'x property and use any of their equipment, gates or otherwise. Just like if a cargo carrier showed up on another carriers ramp and carried their branded cargo.
Hope that helps.
Isn't this what happened to UPS during their strike? FedEx increased their market share at the expense of UPS because of the strike. More boxes flowed to purple from brown. That loss caused UPS to settle faster than they would have otherwise, or is that an oversimplification?
11-11-2009 | 09:10 PM
#50
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From: Recovering Airline Pilot
I didn't make any commensts about Atlas pilots. I just restated the same thing you admitted: some Polar pilots called Atlas pilots scabs and initiated Article VIII charges. They were cleared (and righly so), but the point was that your claimed "victory" in court actually just created a big mess rather than being a true victory.
You might want to have them explain it to you first. Slander, by definition, can't be in writing. That's called libel. In addition, if it's true, it isn't libel or slander. Statement: Polar pilots called Atlas pilots scabs. True? Yep, by your own admission. Therefore, no libel or slander.
Despite the "truck driver's" assertions, the above could be considered struck work under ALPA. Each MEC has the ability to declare their own struck work definition. Some choose to include the above in the definition, other don't, precisely because they believe it may create more leverage if passengers flock to another carrier. There are pros and cons to each definition, but each MEC makes their own choice.
If you want to go down that road and slander them, I'm sure there are a few Atlas pilots (one who has pockets deeper than ALPA) who will be only too happy to have their lawyers contact yours and explain the terms slander and defamation.
Despite the "truck driver's" assertions, the above could be considered struck work under ALPA. Each MEC has the ability to declare their own struck work definition. Some choose to include the above in the definition, other don't, precisely because they believe it may create more leverage if passengers flock to another carrier. There are pros and cons to each definition, but each MEC makes their own choice.
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