DOT to create panel to fix airline industry
12-01-2009 | 06:32 AM
#51
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Joined: Nov 2008
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From: Just a broker now.
It's interesting that no one has mentioned a national seniority list for all 121 pilots as a possible solution. If congress is bent on writing major legislation, why not put everyone on a list. The benefits would be huge, and it would significantly stabilize the industry. Pilots could shop airlines for the one with the best business model. You would no longer be tied to one carrier and have to go back to the bottom if your latest management team turned out to be bozos and ran the company into bankruptcy! Pay would already be set through negotiations based on number of seats and which seat you are sitting in. If one airline goes bankrupt, those displaced pilots would automatically get picked up in seniority order at other remaining carriers as soon as there are openings. Start-up airlines would have to pull from a pool of qualified listed pilots and pay them the going rate, not some substandard, joke benefits rate that drags down the other carriers. If a new carrier wants to succeed, they would have to have a better product, not just cheap first and second year new hire employees. Airline managements would actually have to MANAGE THE PRODUCT instead of simply lowering costs on the backs of their employees all the time. They would compete for customers based on service, not on costs. My understanding is that this almost happened back in the deregulation era and was part of the original legislation, but was removed in committee by anti-labor forces.
Basically you want a socialized airline industry.
12-01-2009 | 06:43 AM
#53
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12-01-2009 | 06:47 AM
#54
No longer cares
Joined: Mar 2008
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From: 767er Captain
12-01-2009 | 07:06 AM
#55
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Joined: Mar 2008
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It's interesting that no one has mentioned a national seniority list for all 121 pilots as a possible solution. If congress is bent on writing major legislation, why not put everyone on a list. The benefits would be huge, and it would significantly stabilize the industry. Pilots could shop airlines for the one with the best business model. You would no longer be tied to one carrier and have to go back to the bottom if your latest management team turned out to be bozos and ran the company into bankruptcy! Pay would already be set through negotiations based on number of seats and which seat you are sitting in. If one airline goes bankrupt, those displaced pilots would automatically get picked up in seniority order at other remaining carriers as soon as there are openings. Start-up airlines would have to pull from a pool of qualified listed pilots and pay them the going rate, not some substandard, joke benefits rate that drags down the other carriers. If a new carrier wants to succeed, they would have to have a better product, not just cheap first and second year new hire employees. Airline managements would actually have to MANAGE THE PRODUCT instead of simply lowering costs on the backs of their employees all the time. They would compete for customers based on service, not on costs. My understanding is that this almost happened back in the deregulation era and was part of the original legislation, but was removed in committee by anti-labor forces.
Granted, pilots are prone to a "certain" amount job insecurity in this profession, slightly more so than others, but I feel that is part of the marketplace in terms job applicants. There are a myriad of reasons on why the concept of a nationalized seniority is unfair, but I'll give you one flat out, maybe some pilots are stronger applicants than others. What I mean by that is, in terms of hiring, why should every pilot be guaranteed a job if the company they work for goes bankrupt. In an ideal world it would be really nice if every pilot always had a job, but if you guarantee that the most senor pilots get a job, that will always come at the expense of another pilot. If UAX goes out of business, would it be fair for the bottom 2,000 pilots at AA to be furloughed?
When we apply for a position with a company, it is an lifelong investment, one we can rarely see to the end with. I hate to say it, but ultimately I think it is a matter of picking your poison.
12-01-2009 | 07:16 AM
#56
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,045
Likes: 1
From: FO
A law stating that name on the ticket must match the name of operating certificate that the flight will be operated on. So a Delta ticket must be operated on the Delta operating certificate. Stop the outsourcing to the lowest bidder.
12-01-2009 | 07:18 AM
#57
Line Holder
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
Advocates of NSL?
It's interesting that no one has mentioned a national seniority list for all 121 pilots as a possible solution. If congress is bent on writing major legislation, why not put everyone on a list. The benefits would be huge, and it would significantly stabilize the industry. Pilots could shop airlines for the one with the best business model. You would no longer be tied to one carrier and have to go back to the bottom if your latest management team turned out to be bozos and ran the company into bankruptcy! Pay would already be set through negotiations based on number of seats and which seat you are sitting in. If one airline goes bankrupt, those displaced pilots would automatically get picked up in seniority order at other remaining carriers as soon as there are openings. Start-up airlines would have to pull from a pool of qualified listed pilots and pay them the going rate, not some substandard, joke benefits rate that drags down the other carriers. If a new carrier wants to succeed, they would have to have a better product, not just cheap first and second year new hire employees. Airline managements would actually have to MANAGE THE PRODUCT instead of simply lowering costs on the backs of their employees all the time. They would compete for customers based on service, not on costs. My understanding is that this almost happened back in the deregulation era and was part of the original legislation, but was removed in committee by anti-labor forces.
I find it curious that advocates of a National Seniority List seem to start with the assumption that there is any way that all carriers could be forced to hire in seniority order. That business model doesn't exist with any regularity in the US at this time. In a few of the major cities, some unions do have every job locked up, but it is not country wide. In New York City maybe, but in podunk midwest town de jour, it is more likely that a non-union electrician is able to get plenty of work at a much lower wage.
The current supply of senior, thousands of hours experienced pilots who are un-employed, or under-employed is as high as it has ever been in the last 30 years. Are there any airline companies hiring those pilots at wages that equal that experience now? How could companies ever be "forced" to hire at anything other than entry level pay? What else would have to change to make a NSL work for the suddenly unemployed senior, experienced pilot? I can not see the senior pilot being able to "shop airlines for the one with the best business model" with the free market 100's of air line companies system that exists today.
I can only see NSL as workable if there were just one airline, run by the government. We could end up there some day. I just hope I am retired by then.
12-01-2009 | 08:08 AM
#58
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 4,196
Likes: 51
From: Legacy FO
I find it interesting that pilots who want a NSL tend to be civilian guys who made bad choices, are stuck in bad situations, have in their eyes "paid their dues", and seem to be jealous of other pilot pipelines who feed straight into the majors. No hate here, I'm just saying.
12-01-2009 | 08:18 AM
#59
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Joined: Mar 2007
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Best idea I've seen all day. I think the flying public would prefer this too. At least outlaw the express stuff. If it has the company logo on the tail then it needs to be flown by company pilots. International is probably OK because there's no way one airline can serve the entire world's airports.
12-01-2009 | 08:38 AM
#60
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 4,196
Likes: 51
From: Legacy FO
Best idea I've seen all day. I think the flying public would prefer this too. At least outlaw the express stuff. If it has the company logo on the tail then it needs to be flown by company pilots. International is probably OK because there's no way one airline can serve the entire world's airports.
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