What is it Worth?
 

We would all like to pat ourselves on the back and tell ourselves that we are worth more since we have so much responsibility. The world however doesnt work like that. Many common jobs take on huge responsibility and are not paid even close to what they are worth. Even though it is romantic to think of the brooding pilot up front who is deeply concerned for everyone in back, the truth is that there is only one person on the plane that they really care about and hopefully the rest make it too. If we were to award pay to the job that deserves the highest merit in regards to risk I think it should go the the foot soldier in Iraq. Not only is his life at risk but takes on the daily risk of killing adversaries and innocents alike. The results are that they will have to live with the mistakes for the rest of their lives. If pilots mess up they usually are not around to live it down.

SkyHigh

skyhigh, you're a sick individual. Maybe you didn't care about the wellbeing of your passengers, but I can assure those who read this post that myself and all of the airline Captains I know, ARE concerned for the safety of our passengers. In fact, I'd rather perform a return to service flight after a control surface removal/replacement (no passengers) than I would carry a load of kids to DisneyWorld because the sense of responsibility to the passengers weighs heavily upon me when they are in the back.

You sir, are pitiful.

Skybolt

I do know several pilots that survived accidents that resulted in fatalities...And these pilots live with that fact every day...SkyHigh I think you need to apologize to all those that have made it to the position of command and to those who will...Respect is a two way street buddy...And your not driving on this avenue today with a post like that.

Ignore him, he obviously isn't happy with his life outside of aviation. (because he posts so often on this Pilot forum). He seems to get his jollies predicting doom and gloom and trying to make others as miserable as he is. ...................Saturday Night Live (SNL) even does a skit about folks like this............"Debby Downer". Ya know the type. The type that always looks at the bad side of things, never sees the postive.

Happy 4th of July to all my professional Pilot Bretheren.

Sorry
 

I am sorry if my approach was difficult or perhaps offensive but I still believe in my point. I am sure that if asked everyone would claim to be concerned about their passengers but when it comes down to it a healthy self interest serves all aboard. I am not a gloom and doomer but I do not think it is right to be an arrogant public servant either. There are many daily jobs that have a similar risk level or higher and they don't feel the need to pat themselves on the back as much as pilots feel obligated to. Everyday school bus drivers take into their care our children. Nationally accidents happen almost daily and they don't demand 200K salaries for it. Airline Pilots have one of the safest, redundant, monitored and most automated jobs outside of subway drivers and I don't think it is right to be smug about any "Heroics". In fact to me it is far from it.

SkyHigh

I know you guys would like to think otherwise but I am very happy. I just have an opposing view to many of you. Some of you would like to interpret that as dissatisfaction but the opposite is true I can assure you.

[QUOTE=SkyHigh]There are many daily jobs that have a similar risk level or higher and they don't feel the need to pat themselves on the back as much as pilots feel obligated to. Everyday school bus drivers take into their care our children. Nationally accidents happen almost daily and they don't demand 200K salaries for it. Airline Pilots have one of the safest, redundant, monitored and most automated jobs outside of subway drivers and I don't think it is right to be smug about any "Heroics". SkyHigh QUOTE]

SKY It is points like this that make me wonder if you were really ever an Airline Pilot. Sure many jobs carry risks. Driving to work in your auto carries risk. Comparing a School Bus driver to an Airline Pilot (assuming you were ever one) is pure Toro Caca..........

First a school bus driver is not regulated. A School bus driver only needs a commerical driver's license. Hell they don't even drug test them. I got my commerical Drivers ticket when I was was furloughed several years ago. I studied for 10 minutes and took the written........You claim to have a B-737 Type. Did you study for only 10 minutes before you took your Oral?
Am I to assume that didn't take any work on your part? Didn't you need an ATP before you got your type? Didn't you need your commerical Pilot's license before you got your ATP? Didn't you need you Private Pilot's license before that?......You did not have to un-couple the auto pilot.

Second If a Bus driver has an Engine problems or Electrical Problems or ....god forbid a Fire..........he would simply pull over to the side of the road. Stop the vehicle if you will.........and hopefully get everyone off.......

Since you never were an Airline Capt, maybe you never had to make any Command decisions ..............I guess you'll never know what it is like to have a cabin depressurize or have to fight a fire or shut an engine down at 30 degrees west..........or 170 degrees EAST........with the nearest divert 3 hours away. I guess you were just a Brain Dead First Officer who was nothing more than the CAPT's autopilot..........does that sum it up

I guess AL Haynes in your opinion was just saving his own ASS and didn't give a ****** about anyone else...................

I can't speak for how or what kind of Pilot you were......but by your comments in this post and hundreds of your previous ones, I am not getting a positive picture..........

The pilots I have had the priviledge to work with here and my other 2 airlines
are of the finest quality people I have ever met. The same for my former Military compadres. Most are unselfish and quite humble, although they do exhibit a certain confidence most people only dream of. They are intelligent, gifted and skilled technitions who I trust my with my life.

Comments like yours are simply pathetic........(with a consistent tone of Jealousy)

The only reason I am even posting today on this is that I am on a layover , unfortunately another Holdiay away from home.......................

What's your excuse SKY? Why don't you go throw a baseball with your kids and grill a hot dog.....................Get a Life and leave the Flying to PIlots.

[QUOTE=RedeyeAV8r]Al Haynes...now THERE is a pilot's pilot.

He made Charles Lindbergh look like a student pilot on that June day in 1989.

Redeye
 

Dear Redeye,

I have healthy background in civilian aviation. My first few years were spent as an Alaskan bush pilot. Later I graduated to contract work for the forest service and charter/medevac Learjet work. As you know my last five years were spent as an airline pilot. I had a long and slow climb up the ladder.

Perhaps it was my experience in other parts of aviation that lead me to have the opinions I do of airline pilots. It always seemed odd to me that these bloated button monkeys actually felt they accomplished something at the end of the day. The life of an airline pilot involves endless repetition to a mind numbing degree, same airports, same hotel, same controller, same plane, same approach day after day. From my perspective it seems that the job requires little skill, intelligence, ability or moral character. Only the ability to follow flow charts and to learn through rote memorization. Our friend BrownTail loves to mention how his education completed as a high school graduate with a GPA of 1.7.

Clearly it is not the realm of heroism or of a great brain trust. I recognised this early on and accepted it as a part of the job. After risking my neck at other places in aviation I was relieved to finally expect to live past 30. In most of the lower rungs of the airlines most seem to have a similar opinion. The mass delusion seems to move in above a certain income level. Perhaps the size of the paycheck has an ego growing side effect or maybe it has been so long since they had a real job they have forgotten what it is like to really sweat. Whatever it is it seems to me that many pilots self image of their importance to the world is out of balance with the reality.

I am glad that you like it and I am happy for you that you can feel good about it. However if any status or respect for the profession remains it is due to the accomplishments of former generations. It seems to me that the rest of the world is rapidly catching up to a more realistic job image.


SkyHigh,

Thank you for asking by the way. It is hot outside and I have a teething baby to tend to. Our home has been blessed with little children. Often we are on house arrest with a sleeping child on our laps and there is little else for me to do besides type notes to you guys. Later though we will be heading over to a friends house for a Barbecue. Sorry you are not at home today.

Al
 

[QUOTE=B757200ER]
Mr. Haynes did what is expected of anyone of us, his best. One of his finest attributes is his humility. It seems a rare commodity amongst many airline pilots.

SkyHigh

[QUOTE=SkyHigh]Not the ones I have had the pleasure serving with..............
You obiously have had limited exposure............

Happy 4th........now go grill some burgers and play catch with your kids

I will !!
 

[QUOTE=RedeyeAV8r]
Thanks Redeye,

I will take your advice. It is always a pleasure exchanging ideas with you. I hope you have a good day. :)

SkyHigh

So do baseball players or anyone athletics, people in law in enforcement, and so many other professions. When you type on the keyboard do you have to think about where the letters are? If you do that takes away from actually getting anything done. When you eat do you have to figure out where your mouth is? Do you have to think about how to tie your shoes? When your driving do you have to think about how to slow down?

Your statement is so most assinine.

Pilots don't train religiously so they can feel good about theirselves and or feel like robots. They train because in the case of emergency they don't have think about what to do next. It is instinct.

They go through procedures to take out the "bonehead" situation. All of us forget things every now and then but it usually doesn't kill a bunch of people.

Your goal might be get people to think but your approach is so wrong. The most you are doing is causing people to turn away from you.

You could learn from the story of the "North Wind and the Sun"

Use your prospective to help people not make your mistakes or help them better deal with the issues that caused your the most problems.

I still think that the "Pay For Training" guy/gal is ruining this profession. Anyone can cough up the $ and can get any rating he/she wants, no matter the time it takes (unlike military pilots). Those that do the "PFT" (with the $60k - $100K loans) are plan ass dumb! (Have fun paying the loan back) All the automation works great, until it "breaks". Then it depends on the airmanship and experience of one's flying skills. Those that get hired at an airline with very low time ( 300 th and 100 multi), I bet really has not seen very mcuh that could or can happen.

My two cents.

Two and only two core reasons for pilot wages to drop. Supply and Demand. The *****s and hobbyists are supplying cheap pilot skills to the market so they can get their rocks off flying a jet. Thus those of us here to make a living get screwed in the long run.

Tell that to a DC-8 driver.

I have no respect for people who have the money to get them ahead of others who have more skills but no pesos. It goes as well for favoring any minority with less experience...oh well I just opened a new can of worms...

read the link in my profile, to a certain extent yes but thats not the right reason

there a too many ******* cheapskate lousy backstabbing lawyers in the US, but their salaries arent going down. Why? because they dont undercut each other, pilots undercut each other cause all of their unions arent worth crap anymore

What about CFIs? My opinion from experience.
 

AGREED.

So what about cfi's whose students trust their very lives with them? They trust us to teach them skills, and at the same time to bring them home safely. I have personally lost a student. He got past his private pilot certificate and went on to fly personally. He got into a typical spatial disorientation and ripped the wings right off of his BE24. He was a great man, and in my opinion, a 4/10 skilled pilot. I will never live this down. Should I have signed him off for the checkride? Yes. He passed. Should the examiner have passed him? Yes. The part I cannot even really connect to STILL is the fact that it was not only HIM that was taken because of MY profession. His 17 year old son went with him on that fateful flight. So the question remains: what is it worth? Is it worth 45/hr for me to train someone to do something that could wind up killing themselves over? No. Do I call myself a professional CFI? Nope. Do I call myself a professional pilot? Look at my screenname.

So should regional pilots with this very same responsibility X 45 souls be paid less than me if he is flying bigger, better, badder, faster equipment? YES!!!!! He worked for it, he earned it. Or she. Gotta be P.C. I think the chain of poor income starts right here!

I believe that the chain of poor income starts with flight instructing. Getting paid 10/hr or even 15/hr at Flight Safety is pathetic considering the rate they charge their students. So what can we do about it? Well, do you know any cfi's? I know quite a few. If they work under my company they are rewarded for their skills and expertise. They get 50% of the CFI rates we charge students. That's right, they cringe at the thought of going to regional airlines. Yes, a 500TT CFI is not a perfect pilot, but I can almost guaruntee you he can teach just as well as I can. My students pay very well to my school and I in turn relay that pay to the CFIs. They in turn relay expertise that NO flight school in Ft. Pierce can offer. They are professionals and I am proud to be a part of their career BUILDING. They do not go on to regional airlines that pay them 19/hr. They go on to corporate and make quite a bit there for a starting job. And oh, by the way, they don't mind waiting it out because they are PAID WELLLLLL. If airlines wanted good employees they would pay them. They want workers, not employees.

--- I forgot to mention: Corporate wants employees, not workers. Please keep that statement relative to the regional airlines!!!! Obviously you can take a look at the two and figure it out pretty quickly that I will admit they can make new pilots do some strange duties that you would NEVER find (oh, wait, I recall seeing an airline that does this) an airline that will make you detail the boss-man's airplane. Which one was that again??? It's a Florida based airline that replaced value jet. It's late, what can I say?

Unions
 

Here's how one LEC Chairman put it many years ago:

It is the Union's duty to:
--protect you from the Company
--protect you from your fellow pilot
--protect you from yourself

Skyhawq
 

SkyHawq,

You are so green that you don't even know what I am referring to. What is asinine is that you feel entitled to reply to my statements when you are a pilot mill graduate who hasn't even sat in an airliner yet.

Just so you know if you ever do make it to an RJ. You will fly the same plane to the same 6 to 10 airports and will fly the same ILS approach again and again. Over and over till the days blur into a mind numbing unending chain of similar events conversations and actions. You will stay in the same hotel and possibly the same room in that same hotel and wear the same clothes everyday. Once a year FO's will go to the sim and do a few different things then back to the grind.

In training one day you will do touch and goes and the next perhaps stalls. Every few months you will advance to a new airplane or rating but it isn't like that once you reach the airlines. You can't say to the captain " I think I will practice a forward slip on this landing". Well,, perhaps you could do that once. I know that you have some lofty ideas but they just are not so. I have nothing against anyone's ideas or opinions but I hate to see a green new guy make such a fool out of themselves.


My goal is to help starry eyed kids from doing exactly what you have or will do which is to blow a small fortune on a dream that only exists on glossy brochures.

SKyHigh

decrease in pilot salaries
 

I was just watching FLIGHT 93 the 9-11 story....that also influenced a decline, when the world heard that someone(terrorist) could learn to fly a 767 in 8 months to a year....people realized if those idiots can do it, anyone can....concluded therefore pilots are overpayed for something that is easy to learn and do....

Ya know, they learned how to fly it straight and level. Make turns, climbs descents. My private student could fly it. The difference is the skills, systems, and good judgement that lead to a good pilot. Not a suicide bomber.

SkyHawq, you're "ATP Bound"? Private message me if you are ABOUT to go there and I'll help you understand why that would be the worst decision you could possibly make. I've been there at the SUA field.

They barely learned to fly them. The second WTC pilot almost missed. Of course they were all well into the overspeed "clacker."

The Pentagon pilot couldn't find the Pentagon. He circled for a bit trying to find a very large pentagon shaped building.

I wouldn't call them pilots. I'd call them fortunate to have Boeing build their bombs.

Underestimate
 

I think you have underestimated what the terrorists were able to accomplish. It required some navigation, basic aircraft knowledge and some fairly advanced airmanship skills. I certainly am not trying to make these guys out to be anything less than horrid terrorists but it does make a case for the ease of operating a modern jet. The terrorists only had FS2000 and a few hours in a 172. With classroom instruction and a real simulator I would bet that you could take a guy off the street and in 90 days make him into an effective First Officer with zero prior experience.

SkyHigh

You never made Captain, did you?

Skybolt

It's SkyHawg not SkyHawq.

No Bolt
 

No bolt I didn't make captain in the airlines however I have too much command time in part 135 piston and turbine twins. Your point??

My idea isn't new. Overseas airlines like Cathay and JAL have cadet programs that are similar in nature. Even UAL in the 80's set up an entry level flight academy in anticipation of a pilot shortage that never materialized. While at Horizon Air I met a new hire who had the bare FAA 141 minimums of 190 hours in actual airplanes and he did just fine. I think it is more than possible.

A part of the reason that captains get paid more is that they might have to do a little OJT at times. The FO is there to, in part, build experience under the guidance of a more experienced crew member. Sometimes it is the FO who informs the captain of recent changes to operating procedures since they just got out of training.

SkyHigh

Mistake
 

My mistake, I am sorry SkyHawg.


SkyHigh


Let's all get High on flying !!

Mid 1960's, not 80's. In the 80's UAL had pilots on furlough.

Apologize
 

I apologize if I have my dates wrong however I clearly remember reading an article perhaps in the early 90's about UAL working to establish direct hire cadet schools in response to a perceived future pilot shortage threat.

SkyHigh

Having started this post I find it quite interesting where it ended up.

I began with a relatively simple explanation about why I thought wages were decreasing. It turned into a place for pilots to tell everybody just how special they are and how difficult their jobs are.

HUMBLE?

Does humility often involve spending your time arguing on an online forum about how valueable you are?

You never know where these threads will go. We're lucky this thread hasn't changed to what we ate for dinner. Oh course all the Regional Pilots ate Ramen Noodles.

Was at UAL from 1965 through 2003. It was the 60's, and I was one of them.

They did not establish direct hire cadet schools - instead you went through all of the employment tests, including the ever-loving Stanine, and full flight physicals.

It is possible that a certified flight school may have been a UAL requirement, but if it was they were not involved with the school itself.

One could get hired literally with "zero-time". You then had one year to get your commercial - didn't even need an instrument ticket, to boot.

The shortage that UAL "saw on the horizon" never materialized.

TWA also had a program planned, but I do not think it came to pass.

My point is: lowtime/green/undertrained newbies don't make acceptable co-pilots. They may turn into acceptable co-pilots, but they don't start out that way. If you had been the Captain in a crew environment, you would have known that.

Is possible for a minimally qualified (in terms of hours) to become an FO, but it takes many more days than you would wish to believe. The European carriers that do the true ab-initio programs take a cadet and put him through four years of intense college studies along with his minimal flight training. A recent graduate from an American pilot mill is highly unlikely to have received the same level of training. There is no real comparison, with the possible exception of the top flight aero universities.

You need to get your story straight. Have you forgotten that you hold airline pilots with very little regard? (If you've forgotten your own words, see my signature. Those are your words) Now, you want to explain away your argument about low time FO's with the Captains competence. The Captain is also an airline pilot, and according to you, he has no ability. He's just a trained monkey so to speak.

SkyHigh, if you really want to help wannabees/newbies gain a better understanding of the industry, you might ought to give more respect to the profession. As it is, your message about the state of the job, which I sometimes tend to agree with, gets lost in your incessant streams of pilot bashing. No one is going to listen to someone who's message seems to come from jealousy and spite.

Have a great day,
SkyBolt

Dear Bolt
 

Bolt,

I know that you are one of my biggest fans therefore I enjoy taking the extra time to address your questions.

Airline Captains are included in the training process of new hires. Upon completion of formal training FO's are not expected to be perfect. I myself have witnessed several extremely low time individuals successfully reach the minimums and were allowed to pass into the ranks. I realise that they might have incurred extra supervision from the line Captains but it is a part of their job description no matter how much they might not like it. I figured that you would know this. I am sure that you had a few grumpy captains to deal with. (joke)

I hold airline pilots in what I consider to be a realistic and balanced regard. They are not supermen or hero's. They will not solve world hunger or cure cancer. Their skills are not rare or unique. The job does not require any unusual mental abilities or education. They operate a complex machine on such a regular frequency that it reduces the operators to human automatons. You must be in your 20's to still hold such fantasies so I will not go on.

I don't wish to bring down our nations poor pilots, but what does it serve to artificially inflate their value in the world? Young pilot wannabes are desperately searching for the myth of the gallant stalwart noble airline pilot which was gone decades ago if it really ever existed at all. What we are left with is much more humble and closer to a crane or ferry operator.

I can understand your need to see yourself as something more. What other option do you have? My question to you is are we really serving the youth by telling them bed time stories that really are not true?

SkyHigh

As always I am your biggest fan and enjoy our exchanges.

Ramen noodles are for freight dogs; regional pilots eat easy mac:D

I'm not sure that I understand what you mean. What 'minimums', and what 'ranks'?

I might appreciate your strong opinions better if I knew your background. What are you self-employed at and how much PIC time do you have in the 757/737?

Sorry to let you down on this High, but I'm not a fan of anyone who cuts down my profession. You've written too many words like the ones in my signature to gain my reverence.

You hold airline pilots in "realistic and balanced" regard? Your words would tend to prove otherwise. Do you wish for me to search your past posts again to prove my point? You may hold pilots in high regard, but you've expressed your disregard for airline pilots too many times to attempt to get away with showing that the job is easy. The job may be easy, but that doesn't lead me to hold those who do the job with low regard.


Sorry to disappoint, but I'm passed 29.

BS, young pilots are looking for; money, fulfillment, job satisfaction, beer and sex. Nothings changed for the last fifty years.

Do you really believe that a pilot is on par with a crane operator?

I have no need to see myself as anything. My family is pleased with me and that's all that matters. In fact, I fly not because I need a ego trip, but because it's the best living I can earn for my family. , I earn a very decent paycheck and I'm proud of my profession. That's why I defend it against your attacks.