Theory on pilot wage decrease
 

I believe that one of the main reasons pilot wages are dropping is because of the relative ease involved in flying the newer aircraft. Our equipment is becoming so automated that our job doesn't take the skill it used to. Because airline flying is easier now than it ever has been, pilot positions are able to be filled by less intelligent, apt (insert whatever flattering adjective you want) individuals. Aviation is opening up to a larger crowd of people which increases the supply of pilots to companies. Increased supply of "qualified candidates" will decrease our wages.

This idea of supply and demand is a very basic concept and really can't be argued, so the issue at hand is the difficulty of flying modern aircraft. I don't think many pilots will refute that with all the research and engineering centered on human factors, safety and ergonomics aircraft have become much easier to operate. Compare flying a Beech 18 single pilot IFR to flying a 777 certified for CAT IIIc approaches. Apples and oranges? Sure. However, I think a lot more people could run checklists and monitor the 777 landing itself than could shoot a raw data approach in an aircraft that has more levers (oil bypass valves, cowl flaps, etc.) than very many since.

I think that the high level of automation and infrequency of serious emergencies has also lessened the value of a seasoned pilot. With all the standardization, training and information given to new hires the knowledge gap between the Captain and FO isn’t nearly as large as it once was.

I’m not saying that this trend is right or wrong, that we deserve more or less money. I’m just writing what I’ve observed and a possible explanation for why things are the way they are.

Interesting! I'm not a pilot (yet) so I can't really have an opinion. All I will say is that for your first jobs, don't most pilots start out flying aircraft such as Beech's, Metro's, Caravans etc...? So therefore it would automatically weed out the lesser intelligent guys that can now flood the pilot group because of more automated planes (such as the 777 as you mentioned)? because you end up flying those later on in your career.

Keep 'er in the green duvie:)

I understand what you're trying to say and you are wrong. I've flown old planes single pilot IFR and new glass cockpit airliners to CAT III zero-zero landings. They are different, but the newer doesn't mean easier. Pilot pay has come down for many other reasons, but that is not one of them. I have 11,000 hours and six airliner type ratings. Newer and automation create a whole new set of problems and lots more complicated training. Sometimes just keeping it simple would be easier.

I'll concede that the hands-on stick-and-rudder skills are not used as much as they once were by airline pilots (not to say they are gone). However, as aircraft system redundancy and automation reduce workload, the workload is in fact increasing in an ATC over-capacity system.

Pilots still must have experience and judgment to perform safely in a very dynamic environment (which is independent of pay). You could pay a 400 hour pilot $25/hr to sit in the seat (many companies do) and that pilot still lacks the skill, experience, and judgment to operate [solo] in the modern airspace system even though he may know which buttons to push in the cockpit.

Wages reflect that negotiation environment for a CBA - nothing more. As the modern airline pilot moves from a stick-and-rudder ace of the base to a systems manager with superb situational awareness - the head work and judgment will not change.

IMO, this is what brings value to the negotiating table

Not to mention there are 200-300 people in back, relying on our expertise and experience to get them safely to their destination.

What is that worth?

So I take it then that Beech 1900 that I hand fly NDB approaches to mins because we don't have auto pilot or gps and which the FAA apparently has de-valued the lives of the 19 souls aboard (since its easier to fly I can be scheduled to fly 1200 hours a year, not the 1000 the boys with buttons get.)

I take it from your statement I am either a below average individual or I am terribly underpaid because my aircraft is not automated.

Nice guess on the problem. Lets see what the airlines do 5 years from now when they can't fill a new hire class with anyone with more than 250 hours because they have destroyed the lifestyle to the point where no one wants to put up with it for $60,000 a year. Notice the incoming group of career pilots is slimming.

Don't mean to sound cynical but there are a lot of old airplanes flying the line. And maybe its me but I think you better be a pretty smart individual to trouble shoot an airbus at 37000'.

C-ya

Oh PS the correct answer is that I am terribly underpaid!

Maybe pay is decreasing because it's not decreasing, our demands as Americans have just gone up. Or it could also be that there are more factors involved than there were 30 years ago.

Today there are are more planes in use, more people flying, more costs per plane, more pilots needed, more pilots available, more training opportunities, a world economy, more competition, too much competition, too little competition, more regulations, insurance, more expectation, and public relations issues.

This is just a stab in the dark...

Pay
 

Why would any company pay more when they have SkyHawq and many more like him who are prepared to throw their lives away over the job? You would never hear a pair of plumbers arguing over QOL. If something bothered them they would quit and find a better job. Pilots are dangling on the hook of addiction. It isn't a real profession anymore.

SkyHigh

"...total pilot population is down 26% since 1980...", "Student pilot starts are down 61% since peaking in 1961...", "...60-65% of students never get their licenses..." Phil Boyer, AOPA President.

The crowd is smaller, not larger.

I have approximately an equal amount of flight time in small transport jet (B737, F-28) and corporate jet/turboprop (King Air, Citation). I would be much more successful in flying a Beech 18 vs. a B777, neither of which I have flown. Pilot wages in the airlines are down because the airline economy has be in the dumps.

You got to be kidding. Then you must think like a plumber. I have no doubt that replying to you is quite pointless but it is sad that you feel it your duty to pursuade people to not get into aviation.

It is a fact that nothing can go up forever. At some point it must come down but it's a fact that nothing can go down forever. The industry will recover and those that dig in through the hard times will reap the rewards. Ask any real estate developer, stock broker, or investor: when the stock market or real estate market is booming, you missed the best opportunity. They were buying when the market was bad. Now they are making money hand over fist.

Also there are statistics that say the average person till change careers 2-3 times in their life and jobs (same profession) 7-12 times in that same period. As for me I get to keep doing what I do now while I am flying. Flying is a means to an end. My end game is retiring when I want. It will happen.

It's going to really s uck when the economy goes into another recession and the construction business dries up.

Well the aviation industry is doomed anyways. Those molecular transporters are really going take out the aviation industry...

I believe all these stats are much more indicative of General Aviation Trends. ERAU, Purude, UND and other schools are experiencing growth, and many new universities are opening aviation programs. ATP is booming. It seems to me that there are more people pursuing commercial aviation than before.

First, I tried to be explicit in saying that I'M NOT AGREEING OR DISAGREEING WITH THE TREND. I'm not saying that we deserve the pay cut we've recieved.

I do disagree with a lot of the statements that I will attempt to paraphrase: "Computerized jets are just as hard to fly as the old stuff."

I think my biggest mistake was to compare a beech 18 to a 777. I think a better comparison would be a 707 to a 777. Many of you talked about being systems managers, having to deal with malfunctions, and being overall aware decision makers. I will argue that all that applied to 707 pilots, but they didn't have a beautifully engineering computer system to help them. They didn't have big glass moving maps to let them know exactly where they were and how they were oriented. Trend lines on their gages, Computer programs to calculate optimum cruise speeds and altitudes (which many pilots still ignore), ATC with more precise radar and better training, the list goes on.

Aircraft design companies have taken a lot of the the pilot-system interaction away. In older jets the computer wasn't gonna fix anything for you. Proof: A third individual was required in the cockpit because the workload was so much higher. My step-dad told me a story where he went into the tail of an older jet and jerry-rigged the APU contacts to get it to start so that they could start both of the mains and subsequently MEL the APU. I think you'd have a tough time doing that today. When something goes wrong, there isn't a lot we can do anymore. You may run a long checklist and call dispatch, but direct pilot intervention and creativity is diminishing.

Basically, The pilots of 707s DC-8s and the like had hundreds of lives in their hands, had less reliable aircraft and flew the same routes we do today. They didn't have computers to help them with situational and system awareness.

Again I'm NOT SAYING WHETHER OR NOT WE DESERVE LESS PAY! I'M NOT SAYING WE'RE UNSKILLED. I just think the lessened amount of required skill has left us with less to bring to the bargaining table.

Trends
 

Some things cycle others end. The long term trend for Aviation has been downwards since deregulation. Someday there will be more hiring but even during the best of times it wasn't that great. The best you can hope for is that conditions continue to deteriorate to the point where rational people walk away. I don't think you can begin to plan for retirement though.

SKyHigh

My aim is to provide the not so glamorous side of aviation. People can decide for themselves. Some however are unreachable. Especially those who think one of those over priced academies are a good idea. They are doomed from the start.

I won't argue with you there. But at the same time they are getting a degree. That in itself will cost them $40k in most places. So if you figure the other $60k is to get their ratings and time building... if they aren't getting all that... then they are getting a raw deal. Most of them need to find a great money manager and planner and setup a plan to get out of debt.

Not sure if you lumping ATP in that category. For me it's the best solution. Especially considering the cost of Multi-Engine time for 190 hours.

Skyhigh--
 

Skyhigh:

While I agree with a lot of what you say that disputes the high and unrealistic expectations that may be the downfall of many who can not see beyond the glossy magazine, I take exception to you saying that flying is not a real profession anymore.

Many people do thier skilled job because they like them, and are willing to put up with a lot of garbage they don't like. Whether they be a welder, plumber, etc.

I am not an airline pilot, and will not speak about the airline life like I know about it.

However, flying airplanes pays for my house, the food in my referigerator, and the funding to enjoy my life while meeting my obligations.
I find satisfaction in what I do, and am insulted by someone putting down how I make my living. I am sure there are airline pilots here who agree with that satement.

I have wanted to walk away before, but I will stay until I have no choice. That is my decision.

By the way--you will never see me looking at people roofing a building on a hot day and hear me say how stupid they are. I have respect for them.

Jobs
 

Roofers, plumbers, police and firefighters have real jobs. They might have paid for some of their initial training but not a one of them would do it for free. Aviation isn't a real job anymore since the price of entry far out strips any financial benefits the career could offer. Pilots are lining up to do it more for the experience than for the real benefits it offers.

Today flying is more of a working hobby. No rational person with real income needs would consider it as a profession. I don't know what you do for a living. I was an Alaskan Bush pilot and did pretty well for myself. At 24 I was making more than most regional airline captains flying a 207. I was paid that much since few else would do the job so far off the map. It is possible to find pockets in aviation that pay better but most of the time there is a sacrifice associated with it.

The next time you run into a UPS delivery person ask them if they would still do the job if it required 4 years of college and 60K in additional training expenses while earning half of their current wage.

SKyHigh

There are volunteer firefighters and auxillary police officers, so yes, some people would do it for free.

EMTs where I live do not make very much money, and fair little better when they become a paramedic. They work like 24 hour or longer shifts where they sleep at the office. (They are not members of any firefighter's union, they work for a private company). Yet, many people have been there for years because it is a lifestyle. I know several police officers, and it is certainly a lifestyle for them because they live and breathe police work. Even though they could get shot on a minor traffic stop--they remain on their job.

I

Still
 

Still though they are receiving something of equal or greater value (experience) and they don't have to pay for four years of college and flight training to do it. Ask them to spend the time in school and perhaps 100K in total education and training expenses and you would have a different response.

SkyHigh

Come back to us when you can fly an MD-11 with one engine, no FD, no AP and no AT

No auto pilot or auto throttles!? NOOOOOO!!!!

I have to do the redeye to Dublin tomorrow. The AP and AT better work. Plus, my steak and lobster better be good. :D

Last night (LAX-NYC) I did land right before a big thunderstorm went through. Gusty 22 knots crosswind, windshear (+/- 10 knots reported), and a full 757-200. I do earn what I make and I am worth more than I make. :)

Nice
 

I am sure that the AP and AT had a long night. Lets not forget to thank the FMS too. It is good that you can feel positive about yourself. Keep it up. :)

SkyHigh

flappy and ottopilot, if your reading skills were as good as your approaches you'd have seen that: I've never said that you weren't skilled or that you are paid fairly

The AP, AT and FMS are all pieces of electronic junk unless a qualified pilot tells it what to do via programming. You seem to forget that little piece of the pie.

Computers (auto-pilots, LNAV/VNAV) don't take-off.
.....they don't know when to shut an engine down.
.....they don't put in aileron or rudder trim. (at least on a Boeing)
.....they don't know how and when to change altitude for turbulence.
.....they don't know which way to go around a storm.
.....they can't predict traffic conjestion based on radio traffic.
Here's the biggies....
.....they can't land with an engine failure.
.....they can't land unless there's a precision approach available to that runway.
.....they have lower wind tolerances for landing.
.....they can't fly visuals, a la the "Expressway Visual 13" @ KLGA or the "River Visual 19" in KDCA, or even a straight in visual.
.....they can't judge rapidly changing conditions, either mechanical, weather or ATC systems.
.....they can't double check to see that dispatch gave you a suitable alternate and/or enough fuel to get there.
.....they can't double-check to see if the logbook/MEL's are properly signed off.
.....they can't coordinate with emergency medical services.
.....they can't be flexible with ATC to make the system work.
.....he!!, they can't be flexible with anyone to make the US air transportation system work.

Question: If you have VNAV in your plane. How well does it work?

So, you work for someone who trains you to do single-engine approaches in an MD-11...at MGW in severe icing too I suppose? :rolleyes:


While we may in the near future see entry-level pilots who grew up in a glass 172, most of the folks in the industry today can fly steam guages with no FD, AP, AT, GPS, or moving map.

I believe our justification as pilots is our judgement, experience, and leadership skills. The technical aspects, while often challenging, are not the defining aspect. My personal concern with the "flight academies" is that they provide jobs for many kids, often wealthy, who would have gotten weeded out of the Military/CFI/Night Freight tracks. These people usually don't acquire character, judgement, experience, and leadership skills in college/flight academy, and have missed the phase of their career where they would have the opportunity to learn these things. Some may figure it out as FO's, but some don't.

I think all 121 pilots should hold an ATP, period.

The day there are no pilots on an airliner will be the day after I've stopped flying commercially. The system can't even function with a single-pilot cockpit yet.

Agreed.

I also think that's when seniority on a national list should be based, and that it should be recognized world-wide.

It was part of the training in one of my former lives' major carriers. What's your point ?

Did I say you did call me unskilled or underpaid? I can post on my own without responding to yours.

It is company policy to use ALL of the automation that is available and working. Hand-flying straight and level for 6 hours is pointless- especially on a redeye. The automation is about saving money and safety.

Yes, I am confident in my ability to hand fly or use the automation as needed. I do feel positive in my abilities and so does my CA and PAX.

Are we talking about training in the aircraft or simulators?

Are you serious ? Sure, we were shutting down 2 engines, and the automation just for fun, in a real MD-11

If you had to do that, I stand corrected.

I think the other guy thought that was dangerous and may have thought you meant the airplane, not a sim. I knew. I was making it clear by asking.

It's not uncommon in training...i.e. The simulator...That my company instructors shut down all 3 engines and we demonstrate energy management skills...It's fun and it has a training purpose.

When it comes to operating an airplane, not a heck of a lot.

But it does make for an argument that might be effective when the listener actually thinks that we are thinking about him when the stuff hits the fan.

That was quite an impressive line of storms going through NJ and NYC

duvie, wages are controlled by the level of compensation that the worker is willing to accept. In the past, pilots were not willing to work for nothing. Today, a lot of pilots, both military and civilian are willing to work for very low wages. As long as people are willing to work for low wages, employers will pay low wages. Do you buy your auto fuel from the most expensive Exxon station in town or the least expensive? It has nothing to do with how "easy" it is to fly a modern airliner.

I can't speak to your skills, but for me, learning a flybywire airliner was/is a hell of a lot harder than learning (and succeeding ) in a jurassic jet/boeing737OG. The newer aircraft may not need the level of physical skills that the old ones do, but they do require skills even if they are quite different. Ask any Boeing Captain about the skills needed to transition to a new airbus, it ain't as easy as you might think my friend.

You mention the ease of flying a modern airplane and I'll agree that a modern fully integrated, full glass, computer controlled airplane is easy to manage in NORMAL ops. When things start going to hades in hand basket, those simple systems become about as clear as mud.

You assert that airline flying now is "easier than it ever has been". You obviously don't understand the difference between flying the airplane, and performing the job of an airline pilot. There is a great deal of difference. I could train most any human adult of average intellegence to "fly" an airplane. Getting that same human through a type rating checkride and Captains OE in any part 25 aircraft would be a monumental task. As I said, there's much more to being an airline pilot than just driving an airplane.

I could most likely get into a 18 and fly a perfectly acceptable Cat 1 approach. Fail and engine and I could still do the approach. Fail a couple of generators and I could still fly the approach, etc, etc, Now put me into a 777 and allow me to use all of the automation and I'll fly a heck of a Cat3 Autoland. Start failing systems, and I doubt that I, or anyone who has not attended a full 777 training course, could complete the landing. Before you pop off and say "of course a trained pilot could deal with the failures", I'd like to remind you that I could do it in a Beech18 and I ain't never before set foot in one. Maybe I should say that there's a lot more involved in performing a Cat3autoland than just watching an airplane fly itself.

Uhh, I think that the high level of automation and the infrequency of serious emergencies has INCREASED the value of a seasoned pilot. I'd much rather be paired with a seasoned pilot when I happen upon the snares of life than I would a newhire FO. Wouldn't you?

The only creedence I'll give to your argument is that it is quite possible that airline managers are more willing to allow a green pilot into a automated RJ, than they were willing to put a green crew into an old Convair.

skybolt

Every one of those students going through the programs you mentioned fit into the statistics because they start out with Student Pilot certificates and work their way through Private, Commercial, etc.

Take a look at the FAA website. From 1990 to 2005 there is a drop in Commercial Pilots (FW) of 32,000 pilots. Conversely, there is an equal increase in ATPs. Overall, there is a drop of almost 93000 total pilots.

One reason the big schools are growing may be because many part 61 schools have closed. They closed because the cost of business is tremendous, and demand has been unpredictable.

The schools are the alternative, and they have siezed the opportunity. Affixing thier name with a college is a big money grab for the college. Colleges are all about the money anyway.

The success of the schools is a marketing success story.

Statistics
 

The high cost of flight training and aircraft ownership is making it difficult for the average guy to become a pilot. I think that the statistics show that the hobby pilot is going extinct. Today over 93% of student starts have professional intentions. In the end we have fewer total pilots but a much higher percentage of career pilots. The raise in ATP numbers I feel supports this.

SkyHigh