We can speculate about the hiring process all we want, but explain to me all this:

- Why was the Hoffman Group (DAL's HR pilot hiring firm) sent to MSP to set up a DAL interview process?
- Why has CPZ's management been conducting the "Delta interview" for weeks now?
- Why is a new Delta hiring computer testing center being set up at CPZ headquarters this week?
- Why has the manager of hiring at DAL sent the top 60 pilots at CPZ letters with projected class dates?

You're "in the know" so perhaps you can answer these questions.

I'm sure that management understands what canceling the flow at Compass would do to morale, on time performance, write-ups, etc. They know and have acknowledged that the flow is good for morale. Following through on a promise is usually the best business practice to motivate employees.

I'd like to have faith that this could happen, but history shows management's lawyers usually beat ours. :(

Either way, we are going to be forced into another scope negotiation. The flow is a job protection provision.

It will be interesting to see if Sailing, Slow and Alpha back pedal on how effective a tool it was in preventing furloughs.

(not that I am unappreciative of avoiding furlough and the MEC's work to ensure my employment. They can expect pressure will be maintained to keep up the excellent performance )

Just to be contradictory but: There was no merger, merger was dead until there was different information.

These guys are lawyers and coached by lawyers. They would not under any circumstances presuppose something like this in any conversation prior to it being official. Simply put, answers based upon the known facts of that minute.

Hey, I do a good job of fetching garbage bags on the way back from the walk around. Flying with us junior losers isn't a completely zero sum game. ;)

Which just goes to prove "career expectations" isn't worth what my dog dropped on the trail this morning.

I disagree to a point. It is contractual language that may be questions as to intent. Then we get in to the intent during the talks that the NWA MEC had during 1113C, and then we get in to the intent of bringing the LOA's over to the DAL PWA and for the most part intact.

In the end this is not cut and dry, and that was my point.

Ha, point was that we need to not always look out for what is best for me me me. It has gotten us to where we are today. There is a benefit in helping each other out. It just does not always have to pay you a dividend.

Perhaps leaving it open covers everything?

Best of Luck to all of you guys. We all know how upper managment is never looking out for us........ I'd be more afraid for Gojet to grow even more with Compass flying......But perhaps this could be an opportunity for TSA to get together with Compass and strengthen their possition. Just a thought..

I am not in the know. I will make that clear from the get go. I talk to no one in Flight Ops here at DAL for many many reasons. Primarily because they think there is a leak and there never has been. I just keep my ear to the ground and connect the dots.
In that regard I was wrong about today. I am sure there is more, but the best guessers that I talked to did not see Trans States anywhere near this deal. Nor did I. I get em wrong too. Pinnacle was one of two ways this could have folded.
So now that I have discredited my self in your eyes I will give my personal take.

It is simple. Appearance. 60 may flow. That would be 60 days Aug 2, 16 and the first class of Sept.
What would your take be if they were not doing all of this stuff to make it look like we were going to be screening you guys? Can we all say lawsuit and intent.
Understand that all of these "costs" are negligible, and the licensing is part of our package. The true test is to see if they pack up the second the money hits DAL's bank account.

How did you see this going? Who was the buyer you had in mind?

Your logic make sense. Act like everything is just fine, even though its not. Otherwise your vulnerable. I wouldn't be surprised if the flow goes - but it is unfortunate to those who want it, but aren't in the top 60 of the list.

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Interesting. It appears DAL made a little more $$$ then just the initial sale.

There are a great many pilots working at many carriers for DCI.

What I saw what Mesaba going to SKW but there being the same ole issue of giving one entity to much of the DCI market share and having the ability to control the ASA's and prices. Read Not good for Ma Delta. That is why Pinnacle a former WO NWA carrier who has two other relatively small carriers a good choice in the eyes of DAL. Split it up and get it off the balance sheet. The sale price is a joke considering ASA was bought by DAL for 800 million and Comair for over a billion a decade ago. ASA was sold at a bargain price of 400 million the day before DAL entered CH11 protection, and now they are selling these airlines for nothing. That sends a message to me.

The message is that DAL does not see DCI and or being a runner of WO airlines as the way to go moving forward. They want new ASA contracts that allows for risk sharing of said flying, they want to make the third party carriers responsible for their delays and effect on the passengers. That will happen.

Now in regard to CPS. This one to me is screwy. I figured they would sell the jets to RJET the only major 175 operator in turn for them getting out from under their DCI ASA deal. It would have involved them returning the CPS cert to the feds. With TSA getting the airline intact as well as the sim it sends a message too. It also says keep the flying split up, we did not like the deal RJET or ASA was offering, and keep them fighting among each other. TSA is a bottom feeder that play poorly. One name, Go Jets. Just remember this is the company that created that alter ego. They were kicked out of DCI by Leo Mullen of all people. That should tell you something right there.

It tells me that they like the jets enough to keep them in a 10 year agreement but if TSA finds a need for them somewhere else, DAL may be willing to let that ASA go. It is called divesting from your under performers.It also leaves a lot of DAL pilots not wanting TSA to have anything to do with hiring pilots involved in a flow agreement with DAL. Read pressure from the one place that has leverage to make the flow stick, DALPA. Smart move IMHO. TSA is not someone that imo can tote the line on the customer service levels DAL wants. I see them having a hard time. Not the pilots, the airline.

In the end Pinnacle will be the core of DCI with SKW. Everything else is expendable. That is apparent. These new agreements all end in 202o or so. Everything is looking to end in 2020. What does that make people think? It has many different and varying answers, but one thing appears clear, DAL does not want DCI lift with contracts past this decade.

We will see how the flow plays out, but in the end, the careers of those pilots will be decided by their representation. Talk to your guys no matter where you are working.

I've seen this scenario once in my career and this one is playing out basically the same way. When we kicked CPS off our MEC the writing was on the wall that they would be sold and the flow cancelled. Trans States and Delta will try and get out of the flow agreement. If ALPA goes to work some of the guys who are now eligible to flow will come over and the rest might get guaranteed interviews. Any newhires will get nothing. I also think we will see the flow-back provision cancelled and we'll all move on as seperate carriers with no flow provisions.

I posted this same view last fall when we voted them out of the MEC, but I can't seem to find the post to quote it. The only surprise in this whole deal was how little money they got out of CPS. Delta really wants them out of the house if they took 20 million for them.

I think DAL still owns the 38 jets.

I highlighted most. It only takes one to file a DFR case. There are going to be guys that decide, for one reason or another, to stay at Compass and make their career there. For those pilots, this is a classic case where there are differing priorities regarding scope issues. Why should the MEC restrict 90 seat flying to only Delta pilots, when they represent the Compass pilots too? (assuming we kept the old structure). What if Delta decides to merge with Compass, who would be their merger reps? In this case, the Delta MEC Merger Reps would be representing BOTH SIDES in the SLI discussions. Let's say this happens 5 years from when dates of hire and flows are all mixed up. The old representational structure was an accident waiting to happen from the start.

I agree that the prices we sold them for indicates a fire sale. So that begs to question, Where is the fire? Something is up for those prices. What? Who knows.

It could be a plethora of things.

DOT 3
New Rigs
Hiring flows
etc.

Point is that we gave them away.

So Sec 1.40.e Exception 2 states:

In the event the flow provisions of NWA LOA 2006-10 and LOA 2006-14 cease to be available, either at the feeder carrier affiliate referenced in such LOAs or at another carrier, the number of jet aircraft configured with 71-76 passenger seats specified in Section 1 B.40.d will revert to 85.

Assuming they want to terminate the flow, I wonder how they'll get around this one. Hmmmm................

Pete Carrol did say he was "shocked"... just sayin'

So Sec 1.40.e Exception 2 states:

In the event the flow provisions of NWA LOA 2006-10 and LOA 2006-14 cease to be available, either at the feeder carrier affiliate referenced in such LOAs or at another carrier, the number of jet aircraft configured with 71-76 passenger seats specified in Section 1 B.40.d will revert to 85.

Assuming they want to terminate the flow, I wonder how they'll get around this one. Hmmmm................

Bringing back the ARJ

Dunno.

One ROC style screw up, and you're on the hook for a lot of cash. Considering the memos I've seen recently, they are VERY serious about DOT3.

I could see it if they are worried about being attached to some kind a liability tail from a Colgan type accident, but I'm sorta doubting it. If some smart lawyer has figured out how to penetrate the corporate veil for a tort suit, they could do it just as easily with a contract carrier. Besides, Comair is still WO.

Flow or no flow, I do NOT see them giving up the additional 76 seaters. You can bet that a full court press on the langauge of the LOAs to keep that number where it is, and that's going to require some kind of flow in place.

The only non-intraweb information regarding the DC-9s I've heard is that the -40s will stay for another 2 quarters, and even at that, we're talking about only 7 airplanes. The -30s are being parked as planned. That doesn't cover a whole lot of shift in the regional flying.

It could just be they sold the ticket and the ASA. If DAL keeps the title to the airplanes, they can lease them back to the operator. Then they charge a chunk in the ASA for ground ops, "support" and other crap. Add in the slice they get for the ticket, and DAL gets paid coming and going. That was typical NWA modus when it came to the regionals.

Nu

I hope this doesn't come off as unsympathetic to your guys and their current plight, but the Compass thing was extremely strange. It wasn't like most jobs where you interview for the company, get hired by the company, then work to make that company the best. Most of the Compass guys interviewed at Compass for the express purpose of joining NWA.

I think that was a very strange disconnect in the normal employment process. I think everyone had to know there was considerable risk in the decision to join NWA via a "triple bank shot into the corner pocket" by interviewing at Compass. It still might work out, but there was always a lot of risk in this most unusual process.

Carl

Well you found the section of the PWA that I was referencing. It now comes down to the intent of the wording in our PWA. (Downward or all flow) It is not defined and I would take it to say up and down flow. So, if CPS states that they will not flow their pilots it does become unavailable.

Well my think that thinks it smells or indicates something else because of the fire sale price.

Heyas ACL,

The airlines are worth what they are worth. I can't imagine that mama DAL was giving them away for no reason at all. Sometimes there are pending items that we don't know about.

If I own a Cessna that is nominally worth $100k, and all of a sudden, I decide to sell it to someone for $70k, you can bet there is something wrong, one way or another. So someone buys it for $70k, and the next week, POOF, something external happens, like no more 100LL. Now that $70k airplane is just worth it's weight in aluminum. (this, by the way, is currently going on if you follow GA news at all). Makes the guy who sold it look like a genius, and the guy who bought it look like a sucker.

It could be that DAL plans on making it's money back on aircraft leases. It could be that DAL so highly regards its hiring process that it's willing to sacrifice 60+ 76 seaters just to be rid of the flow.

It could also be they have read the tea leaves and decided that the regional industry is going to be so bad, that a 100 million dollar airline is only worth 20.

Time will tell.

Nu

No. That plane isn't coming back. And a replacement for it doesn't cut it. The clause was specifically for the Avro's, & they are gone.

I actually posted that. He seems to have messed up the quote function.

I think that the language is clear. It doesn't matter how it becomes unavailable. If it's unavailable, the number decreases to 85. The defined flow agreement is for flow UP & DOWN. If part if it disappears, it becomes unavailable.

There is another factor. Delta wants to get of 50 seat RJ's faster than the contracts allow. A recently departed executive, his name rhymes with "Bitewurst", signed a bunch of really bad agreements with RJ carriers. These current transactions might allow Delta to early terminate some of the 50 seat jets and in exchange give the buyers 76 seaters as a consolation prize. Since we are at the limit for 76 seaters, they can't be new purchases, they have to come from existing aircraft. I have no idea if this played into these transactions, but it wouldn't surprise me.

Mebby. It still doesn't really explain the fire sale prices.

And if the flow through folds up, then they lose the 76 seaters as well. I can't see missing an opportunity ratchet down 60 some odd large RJs as politically tolerable for the MEC.

But I am all for rejecting all of the bad RJ deals. Heck, get rid of all of them while they're at it.

Nu

Im shocked that TSA(well, CPZ) is going to be flying E175s for DAL. Is there some way DAL could flow all of the CPZ guys and then TSA could dangle the E175 carrot to the current TSA pilots who are in negotiations for bottom of the barrel prices with the threat of GoJets pilots moving into the E175 slots if TSA doesnt agree to a contract? There is much more to this whole shenanigans, and its rotten.

Possible and plausible.

Point was that it is cheap. If they did renegotiate those asa's the savings are huge.

I just think that there is a bigger reason for this. Time will tell.

Compass has the lowest costs amongst the DCI carriers (76 seat jet). Compass probably makes Delta 20 million a quarter. I am sure Compass was sold to dismantle the flow. I saw the operating numbers when we were doing proving runs with only 1-2 aircraft on property. At that time the Brazilian pilots employed by Embrear said that Compass would be making money for northwest at any flight with more than 41% of the seats filled (how they determine ticket prices, etc. is above my pay grade). Compass contract is below industry average and will be for many years to come.

I can only assume that Compass was a huge money maker for NWA/Delta as the former NWA MEC/LEC said that compass exsisted because mainline gave that up to the company in order to maintain their retirement.... that statement plus the embraer reps leads me to believe compass is a golden goose for it's size.

I can only surmise that Compass was sold for a used puck bag in order to rid Delta of the flow obligations. My 2 cents

If the flow is terminated, then DCI loses 60+ 76 seaters. That would mean that DAL gives up all that cheap lift AND sell a huge money maker for a pittance just to terminate the flow.

Doesn't make sense.

Nu

Would they have to lose 76 seaters from CPZ or could they reduce them from the Republic fleet? Maybe Republic wants out of their 76seat contracts as well in order to put them on the F9/YX stuff?

I believe RAH only has 16 DCI E175's. If the flow goes allowable 76 seaters goes from 153 to 85.

This industry is totally unpredictable. Just last week I had lunch with a friend of mine at Compass. He is an E-170 captain soon thought to be flowing over to DAL. I told him that he was in a very good spot at a very good time. Damm....things change around quick in the airline world...usually for worse. :(

Good luck to Compass pilots.

I agree that the flow was probably the downfall of both Mesaba and Compass. It is an arrogant move, no hiring process is going to weed out all the bad apples. I guess they feel otherwise. You are already trusting these pilots to fly your customers around under your name anyway. You might as well trust them to eventually fly your planes. One thing that is baffling is selling a large part of your flying to two bottom feeding organizations known for horrible performance and horrible customer service. The big push for an enhanced customer experience and the importance of High Value Customers was in the end just lip service.

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