Lost
 

I remember Occam, where'd he go. I miss his insights.

Promoted to a level where he no longer plays with us out here in the Peanut Gallery. I also miss his input on the board.

He "grew a moustache"

Nu

I've got a proposal for the MEC. Enforce the damn contract.
"Status quo" means the flow ends and the number of 76 seat RJs reverts to 85.
Process that.

Compass and Mesaba have been sold. They are no longer "affiliates". The Mesaba flow ends now (subject to "meet and confer"). The RJs revert to 85.
The Compass language is less clear but it doesn't matter.

Can anybody show me where it says something different in the contract?

Glad to see you find it funny.

Guess it depends on when you applied and interviewed. For me and many of the first Compass pilots(approx. 60-80) NWA did not have its application window open when we started at Compass. Please explain again how my rational is flawed when NWA was NOT hiring or plaining on hiring when the most senior of us went to Compass? Hired 06/07. NWA's app window opened when? I know for fact it was sometime in late july or aug. of 07'. Am i wrong?

This is again why I think we should honor the flow for the guys on the CPZ list now.


The biggest thing is the contractual implications of the sale of CPZ, which may have some surprises in there.

I appreciate the Delta guys trying to hold the line against any further scope erosion. My only issue is with those saying screw the flow guys at compass and mesaba. Why would someone wish us harm? By all accounts fight for your contract but why some want to throw us to the wolves is beyond me.

The MEC's and LEC's are working through some pretty complex languages, intent and consquences as we speak. I believe things will be honered, modified and ended all in due time.

Vik,

If the flows get canceled, it is a management decision.

Pilots' opinions are just personal opinions ... don't read too much into individual opinions.

You are right to wait and see.

Have you not been paying attention for the last decade plus? Gains have been made at mainline at the expense of regionals.

Because they have something to gain.

Yes, and regionals haven't gained anything at the expense of mainline in the last 10 years at all. :rolleyes:

PUH-LEEZ!!! Many of the regionals existing today grew massively, all at the expense of mainline.

I don't think anyone wished the Compass pilots harm. Many of us want the flow to be honored, and to continue. If it's cancelled, then we want the contract to be followed.

.....removed

Exactly, I called my reps and said the flow should be honored, there was a committment, if not follow the contract.

The contract allows the flow to be canceled. I want the contract followed. The truth is terminating the flow is probably more beneficial to me as a junior Delta pilot. The furlough protection is gone now that Delta will not be paying Compass training costs. I have no intention of ever flowing down to Tran States even if I'm furloughed. I think terminating the flow and having the consequences written out in the contract enforced is the most beneficial thing to me. I'm not calling my reps to tell them my opinion because it would negatively affect another group. DALPA separated from Compass so we could not be sued for failure of duty to represent in situations like these. DALPA represents Delta pilots, not Compass. As long as the contract is followed and no scope is given up, I'm satisfied with the outcome.

Of course.. You got yours so screw everybody else. At least you're honest about it

I'm sorry, but what decade are you talking about? I think you must have missed the most recent one.

I never flowed up. I did it the old fashioned way and applied for the company I wanted to work for. Then, I interviewed for the company I wanted to work for. I don't know how what you mean by claiming I'm trying to screw everybody else.

If the flow is terminated the way the contract is worded (taking 6 seats out of a lot of 76 seaters and reducing the weight on the Compass jets), then it is probably more beneficial to me than the flow. That is if the contact is followed to the letter. The flow-down is useless to me now. I have no idea what's going to happened. There are very few Delta pilots willing to talk about this issue on here. I could be like everyone else and not comment. I have not given my opinion to anyone outside this board. Verbally attacking me probably won't hurt your cause, but I know it won't help it.

Not a personal attack at all, just pointing out the way you are coming across. This is an assumption on my side, but i get the feeling that you dont believe than anyone that didnt go through the process you did doesn't deserve to be at Delta. If this is how you feel, how do you feel about your former NWA brother? Do they deserve to be where you are or would you and those like you wish they would have proven themselves to Delta?

You're not making any valid points and assuming way too much. hockey is fNWA.

Frankly, I agree with him.

Now as far as my feelings on scope takeback.... I'd prefer us right now to just pull out an industrial sized stapler and tack on every DCI pilot to our list and have everything from the smallest turboprop on up be owned and operated by mainline. Sure we may get some "undesireables," but I would much rather have everyone on the list than continue to have this whipsaw bull crap and all this outsourcing. It's horrible for the Delta product and it's bad for our careers. It was a failed experiment and needs to be done away with.

I am former NWA. I don't care who's behind me on the list as long as they're behind me. I do like the degree requirement, but I know there are current Delta pilots hired at Western, Republic, North Central, etc. that do not have one. All I am saying is that the consequences in the contract if the flow ends are more beneficial to me than the flow staying. That's the truth like it or not. I personally do no think the company will follow through with those consequences. DALPA needs to enforce the DALPA PWA. Whether the flow ends or stays should not be a DALPA priority. That's a management decision. This is why Compass was spun off to it's own MEC. The Compass MEC priority should be keep the flow at all costs. The mainline unions and contract carrier unions have conflicting priorities. This situation is no different. I have no idea what is going to happen. I'm just giving my perspective on the situation. If you want me to stop, just say so, and I will. I'm sorry I'm not saying what you want to hear.

I could be wrong about this, but why would Delta kill the flow and have to park/get rid of their most economical aircraft in the regional market...

That is an excellent point. Delta does not like the flow. They don't want to take seats out of aircraft or limit the Compass 175's. This is where DALPA enforcing the contract could help the Compass pilots. DALPA is directly representing the Delta pilots, but the Compass pilots could benefit.

I don't think they will kill the flow, or the flow down that is. My guess is they are attempting to kill the flow up, and hoping we will agree. They're probably thinking we will be happy so long as we have the flow down, and that they'll just keep the 76 seaters.

Thing is that doesn't fly with me. I'd just as soon work at Home Depot then flow down to a company owned by HK. If they want to kill any part of the flow, then 76 seaters will be parked.

Spot on, johnso and hockey. They can't have their cake, as they say.

I'm not an expert and haven't studied aviation history. I would think you are correct. I do wonder however if the high end of the salary spectrum is being held up by the low wages at the regional level. I think one experiment that might prove or disprove this theory is to raise the salaries at the regional level and see what happens. The flying might be brought back in house and there might be pressure to bring down wages at the top.

Are you talking about the turbo-props? They had a chance to extend the leases and keep regional flying at the regional level, they passed it up.

I agree with you.

Why do you guys feel that the decision on whether to continue the flow is management's alone?

DALPA can kill it all on our own. And we should.

b. The right of any company pilot to Flow Down to MSA, or MSA pilot to Flow Up to NWA, pursuant to the terms of this Letter of Agreement, shall be effective only so long as MSA remains an Affiliate of the Company, provided the parties will, prior to the termination of the Flow through rights referenced herein, meet and confer for the purpose of discussing whether continuation or modification of this Flow Through Agreement would be appropriate given the circumstances at that time. Any continuation or modification shall require the mutual agreement of the parties.

Speaking of turboprops - why do you think almost no one else flies them? At one of the meetings, the network guys say people will book away from turboprops if they can: ie, take another airline who offers a jet, RJ or not.

Alaska uses them almost exclusively with Horizon. Alaska has also consistently turned a profit. I don't think most people can tell at the time of booking if they will be in a turbo prop or not. Furthermore, I'd venture a guess that the number one factor people look at while booking is price, even if it means an extra connection.

Check your PMs

Don't both parties (DALPA/MGT & MSA's MEC) have to agree to that...I can['t see Mesaba's MEC keeping around the flow if it doesn't benefit them...I'de rather see them get rid of it if it came to that...

The 900 is more efficient than the 175...but in any case if I was at Delta and with age 65 coming up i'de want the flow to go too, coming to Pinnacle or Trans States isn't the best flow down scenario ;)

The aircraft will not be parked. If the flow down is killed for whatever reason and invokes that clause in the contract they will just remove 6 seats. The 70 seat cap doesnt change so they will just add 4 more first class seats and take away 10 coach. They wont park the planes.

There comes a point that removing seats makes an aircraft unprofitable.....

Clearly delta wont fly a/c around that dont make money:rolleyes: (all 50 seaters.)


If theres some way for you guys to pull these a/c up to mainline im all for it, but lets be real they will just add the 4 first class seats and pull 10 coach. Im not so sure that wouldnt be almost revenue neutral.

Dont forget they just signed long term contracts for these airplanes. Im sure they can get out of them but whats the expense on that?

Im just playing devils advocate to get ideas out there.


By the way I think hockey and johnso are right. DALPA enforcing thier contract may cause them to keep the flow around!!

Why would you want the flow to go if you were at Delta? Quite frankly, flowing down to Mesaba or Compass before the sale wouldn't have been a great time either after working at Delta. The point is that the option was better to many junior pilots than being furloughed and unemployed. Sure there are some that would prefer to go work somewhere else but others are okay being a CA on the 175 rather than drawing unemployment or sweeping floors at Lowes.

The flow down also creates a financial burden for the company due to the training cycles that it would cause and therefore it provides an incentive for them to try and avoid furloughs. For every flow-down at Compass you would have essentially created 4 training cycles. (1 = flow back training at compass, 2 = flow back training at DL after recall, 3 = CPZ upgrade to replace flow back pilot, 4 = new hire or recalled CPZ pilot).

Frankly, you make assumptions that you and probably the MEC do not know. Who pays the flow down costs? Ya think that maybe that is covered in the Sale Agreements and or the ASA?

Curious. Did you come from a company that had a flow in place? Probably not, so you had not other choice but to apply and take a chance. Quite making apples to oranges comparisons.

If recent history and reputations hold up, I would not get my hopes up that any 76 seaters will be parked.