^^^^^^^^^ good question. Or at least start the ball rolling with the MEC to change what airplanes can be reduced such that 76 seaters begin to replace 70 seaters who replaced 50 seaters who just get parked. Smaller DCI, but bigger jets as a % of the fleet. Is that a possibility?

No jets will be parked even if we demand. They will just pull out some coach seats and add two class service. Voilà no more 76 seaters but more revenue.

They need to do a negative weight mod on the Compass planes. Probably not a big deal since the Shuttle America planes are already flying at reduced weights.

Our first day of indoc at Delta was very gratifying. Because as BB said in the first minute, "Welcome to Delta Air Lines, everyone, take a deep breath, you've got a number." And that really says it all. Even if given the chance to interview, even if you pass day 1, then day 2, if everything goes right and you get a call for a class, it means nothing until you walk in the door.

Basically, believe it when you see it. Anything can happen even if you're hired normally, much less waiting months or years for a flow. With that said, looks like there is hope from Ten Years Gone post on the other thread:

""""Hiring; 5000 and growing to 10000 in pool..59% interview success rate. First class of furlough recalls start 8/2, then first class of new hires 8/16. Will honor flow-thru for Compass/Mesaba pilots pending negotiations. 900 pilots in retirement zone (60-65) by summer 2011, another 1300 by 2012..could see hiring for several yrs but not yet approved""""

If Delta didn't want anything smaller than a CRJ-700 and EMB-170 on property, is selling CPZ and Mesaba and the ensuing mess it makes the way to do it, or to start to do it?

For a while you saw 75's doing 76 trips, 73s and MD88s doing 757/737 trips, CRJ900/700s doing MD88 trips, and CRJ200s doing CRJ900/700 trips, but now do we see a reversal? A flow back the other way especially now you can plug a whole new fleet of Airbus's, 753s and DC9s into the NB mix. By the time things settle MD88s are rarely going ATL-LGA and ATL-ORF goes from nearly all RJs to all MD88s, for example.

The MEC will probably have many interesting things to discuss next week. Call your reps, they are answering their phones and messages.

The MEC conference call was a whole lot of nothing really. Just reaffirming the MEC's position that we want to keep the flow around.

We also got another email from the compass president today saying the company wants to keep it around as well.

We get a pay raise, voila', no more revenue......first class seats on oceanic DH and voila', no more revenue......

I think they could do this, but is it cost advantageous? They keep preaching how much we rely on the HVC. What does a HVC want? First Class seats. The 76 seaters make $$$ because First Class is available. Less 1st class seats=Less HVC revenue.

IDK. Just thinking.

I think hes saying there will be more first class seats.

I dont want to speak for him so maybe he can confirm, but what I think he was saying is if delta is forced to pull down 76 seaters they will just remove coach seats and add more first class.

Current config is 12 first 64 coach.

70 seat config would be something like 16 first 54 coach.

I think you're right. I need to stop waking up at 0330! :p

As a Compass (Relatively) New Hire, I just wondered what the general feeling about the flow is with the delta pilots. Obviously everyone I know on this side of the fence is all for keeping it intact but just wondered what the consensus was on the other side. Thanks guys

We have 12,200 pilots. There are over 14,000 opinions they've shared.:)

If we had 100% participation in this issue it would be the first issue we had that type of turn out in! :eek:

I want it to stay. I think a lot of guys, junior and senior, feel the same way.

I hope our MEC/Local Councils feel the same way too.

All I will say is that the rank and file may not have all of the facts.

This is a job for the MEC and it is a difficult one. As they have stated they will meet on Tuesday to discuss this issue. IMHO, it says something that they are paying for trip drops and lodging for everyone to fly to ATL. That alone makes it a big issue to them.

I'm confident the union knows how the pilot group feels about the issue. I don't know all the facts because I'm sure it's NDA info. Let's hope we have home field advantage on this one. The language seems clear, but that doesn't seem to guarantee anything.

Johnso, there are things like intent, the negotiator's notes, etc that come in to play with interpretation. Suffice to say there are a lot of parts of this issue that are all over the place in the PWA and the LOA's. Some language is more restrictive some less. It is not my job or your job to determine it.

I have talked to my reps, let my opinion be known, and in the end that is all I can do. It is now in their hands. Time will tell, but it is a ugly issue with far reaching implications.

Ahhhh....the soap opera that is the airline industry! :D:p

Do you remeber when FNWA had a limit on any jets greater than 45 seats? 98 contract. The company pulled 6 seats out of the rest and purchased more 44 seat CRJ-200s...I think they called them CRJ-4400. During the slip into concessions we agreed to allow the company to put the 6 seats back in.

So to answer your question. Yes they will pull the seats out.

Like I have said before the CPS president has stated that he wants to keep the flow, but unless I have missed something nothing public has been stated by anyone in Delta Management.

So first, we need to determine in there is even an "IF" before we talk about the what.

Also, as much as we like to get ahead of ourselves ahead of an issue, it is probably wise to at least try to refrain from doing so this time.

There is definitely an "if".
DALPA can end the flow-throughs regardless of management's "wants".

I'm a 50 year old Mesaba pilot that will still make the move to DAL, my app is in, just waiting.

Hope it works out for you.

Wait, you mean those aircraft that were "Certified" for "only 44 seats" and they really couldn't just throw 6 seats in them to make em 50 seaters (way to much money for that to ever happen). :cool:

1234,

Yep. The airplane is Certified and equipped for 50 passengers. Then the operator calls up and says, "I need a certificate for 44 passengers to meet a scope clause." Since the requested operation is less than the real capacity the manufacturer says, "stand by one." They print up a TCDS for a 44 passenger CRJ200, call their FAA program manager and throw the thing in the fax. In effect, weight is simply removed (as long as the result is within Certified CG limits) and the airplane performs a little better with a big closet where 3 rows of seats were. Or, the seats are not sold, resulting in a semi permanent operation at 88% of Certified capacity.

Delta's MD88's are Certified for higher weights than Delta operates them. Republic's E175's operate under different weight limits for different airlines. It is common industry practice.

Literally the airline's mechanics can come out and put a few stickers on the airplane, put in the logbook that it now conforms with xxxxxxx and off they go.

It is one reason why ALPA's scope restrictions are not really that restricting.

RJ's with lie flat seats and hot meal service ... heard it here first. Better line up for yellow fever shots.

The E175 could do Manaus if they have the right tanks installed.

Landing fees are based on the Certified gross weight of the aircraft.

In the meantime...fill out the application and go for it on your own! Don't count on a flowthrough especially if it is "unknown".

Compass pilots can't get hired outside of the flow through. If Compass pilots could they would. Its contractual.

Most tried when Northwest started hiring again. Compass originally was the only way to Northwest, at least that was the thought.

You are wrong.

It was never contractual with NWA, was just their unofficial policy. Delta was planning on hiring CPS/XJ outside the flow, even before the sale put the flow in jeopardy.

Nope...the CRJ-4400 were certified for 44 seats and they had to get recertfied for 50........................makes sence doesn't it:cool:

The flow is a big plus for management as it insures that pilots will apply to the airline to "get a number" with the mainline. It's a big carrot, and management knows it.

They want to keep the flow, to ensure that the cockpits will always be full. Management also knows that because of this, they can pay the lowest pilot wages and still attract pilots.

That is not good.

I used to work for Pan Am Experss, and we had the first flow thru agreement. There were many "lifers" there who never wanted to flow up to Pan Am. Unfortunately, PAE pilots pay was poor compared to other carriers operating the same aircraft. So the lifers suffered financially because of the flow.

Worst part was the flow ended, the airline shut down and everyone was affected.

My point is, the "flow" may not be such a good thing, for the "lifers", or those waiting to flow.

Delta had the same situation. At one point we were going to buy a smaller RJ that seated 37 people. Out of the blue the CRJ-40 was offered. Same as the 50 seater but certified for 40. Emb. sold them to us for the cost of the 37 seat jungle jet. Years later the seats were put back in.

To me, the flow isn't that valuable as a shortcut to mainline. I have confidence in my ability to interview and be hired the good old fashioned way, so from that standpoint being able to flow without interviewing isn't that big of a boon.

The real value of the flow is that it provides a large source of steady attrition, and therefore steady advancement for junior guys. Too often, advancement at regional airlines is based on growth, which is unsustainable in the long term and often comes at the expense of mainline. Steady attrition is a better model for all involved:

-It keeps average longevity low for management, and therefore labor costs remain low. With a flow, the attrition is also fairly predictable and can be planned for in a more cost-effective manner.

-The pilots all have steady, predictable advancement, with the associated incremental increase in paycheck and QOL. The prospect of flowing to mainline provides a "light at the end of the tunnel."

-The lifers can work to improve their contract without having to fight junior pilots who are worried about keeping growth going; low average longevity also means payrates can be above industry average without raising labor costs above industry average.

-Mainline gets pilots who have been flying their passengers around for years already with the knowledge that they are future mainline.

I am for a flow with the provision that it provides a flow-down into the most senior Captain positions with our mainline longevity pay protections. Without this flow-down provision, the "flow" should be terminated.

That sounds like an excuse. If H/R did this kind of action they would have more legal ramifications than what they could imagine....I mean, if they cancelled the flow through and then said ...ooopps, that was your chance...sorry!..no way.

Compass was not the only way to NWA.

No, that was the way it was presented during the early days of CPZ hiring, when NWA still had people on furlough and it wasn't anticipated that they would be hiring for several years yet. I guess some of our senior people bought into it. Me, I learned very early how to tell when CPZ mgmt is lying...whenever their lips are moving! :D