Jay, I think you're confused on users. I know your intentions are well...

I personally know the real Sam... and you are a bit off on your assumptions and screen names. He is on our side- we personally sat together trying to get Compass and their jets stapled to the mainline list, along with whatever else we could get in scope restoration. Suggest taking it around and making another pass....

I question if that really works: DAL owns the acft, sets the schedules, determines how much money they make, markets the flights as DAL, the airplanes say DAL on the side with a teensie little "operated by".

No doubt the rewritten ASA's and ability to terminate contracts for performance and whipsaw against the next lowest bidder are where the gold mine is on this, but for liability purposes who maintains operational control will be settled in court when the attorneys start following the money trail.

As others have mentioned I have a hard time connecting the dots on the premium product, preferred airline bit. I guess like so much in advertising it's just a slogan that if repeated enough becomes part of accepted culture never mind the reality.

+1.

The same song and dance repeated over and over does not make the story any more true.

I noticed that this guy neglected to mention that one of the initial damages sought by the RJDC was relief from section 1 of the Delta PWA. Yep, the altruistic ones :rolleyes:

Also not mentioned that little part that was in ALPA merger policy was the fact that ALPA would then have to use all available resources to encourage management to honor the combined list. The sue happy pilots at Comair and ASA would have been monitoring that one pretty closely. We could have kissed all of the contractual gains of C2K goodbye as we would have to **** away all of our negotiating capital in order to "compel". Kind of like trying to compel ice to stop melting in the desert. Management did not want a list merger or a company merger. In fact, none of the 3 airline pilots contracts required a merger. Neither Comair nor ASA fit the required criteria in the Delta CBA to trigger an automatic list merger.

In fact, "undesirable flying" was also defined in the Comair CBA at the time.
Unbelievably, there was flying that Comair was willing to outsource.

Management didn't want a merger of lists. The fictional "operational integration" open and shut case was one based on a napkin and bottled water logo. I mean, we have the same napkins on the plane, so there must be operational integration, right?

We can go back and forth for three years again, and their assertions will continue to fail the sniff test. Time has proven pretty much all of D.Fs theories wrong with regard to scope. In fact, time has proven the true motives of the RJDC.

Joe in three, two, one.....

Hey chatter see ya at the end of the month
:eek:

I could have sworn ad libs post was joe. Maybe he has a couple of screen names.

Get ready. My crews play hard :eek:

So if the flow up program is cancelled just go fill out an application (like most of us had to) and try to get on with DAL/ any other carrier, the normal way. The cancellation of a flow through program does not mean that they will not hire you.....you just have to interview for it.

That's why I said in another thread that management may have screwed up.
It doesn't seem possible, but it looks like they didn't read the DALPA contract before they signed these deals to sell Compass and Mesaba.
They had no idea our contract called for the parking of 68 RJs.
Now they're calling for urgent meetings and hoping Moak will bail them out.

Too bad it wasn't the opinion of Dickie De. His love for Delta pilots was well known.

Don't worry, LM will will bail the Company out. That's our history. The union leadership that rocks the boat gets canned. It's go along, get along and get promoted. If this kills his national ambitions, the movement over to management is just a side step.

Oh good grief.. here we go again... What is your definition of bailing the company out? If there is a quid pro quo that (in your opinion) "bails the company out", has LM been complicit-a company stooge-operating without the pilot's best interest in mind? From the obvious vitriol you have towards the man, I would conclude, yes. If on the other hand, this would somehow result in (as an example) of DAL turning off the hiring pipeline, yet LM holds whatever line you have drawn in your mind, is that a better option? Really?

I find that VERY hard to believe. There is a play going on well beyond flow ups and downs, we just don't see what it is.

I tend to agree with our esteemed Captain. These guys read contracts for a living. I don't see them fornicating with the dog this badly.

I am sure they know what they are up to, and I am sure they have learned from the Mesa stuff.

Remember that Finance makes decisions on what to sell, not Flying Operations.

Wait and see what happens in the coming weeks. Read the LOA's, and the PWA. Understand what is really going on, then when info starts to come out, you can make educated statements.
-Also note that when you read them that many documents reference the others ones. To say the least it is a interesting situation. Also, note that to date DAL has not stated anything publicly about killing any part of the flow. That may come, but to date I see no public reference except the CPS CEO.

(Not directed at you Satch, just quoting your post)

Agreed. There was a reason they did not "proactively engage" ALPA on this - they were busy getting their legal ducks in order without giving ALPA a chance to develop a counter. They are on the defense now.

I can't wait for more engagement :eek:

http://www.guffsturdpolish.com/image...rdpolishSM.png

Just so I understand this -

Moak signs LOAs that many Delta pilots disagree with and the blame is on... Moak.

Lawson writes a letter that many Comair pilots disagree with and the blame is on... all Comair pilots.

I'm scratching my head. :confused:

UGBSM, you'll notice JungleBus lists EMB-175 CA as his position. As none of these aircraft found their way to Comair, I'd say JungleBus is not suffering from Comair's strike-driven woes.

Actually the Q and A that was first sent out and the one that is up on the Compass Webpage has changed...

It states that they hope to keep the flow up in place for atleast 60 days while the parties discuss the continuation of the flow and if neccesary to negotiate new agreements

guess someone got ahead of themselves...

Wow. I'm glad someone finally said it.

I have tried more times than I care to count to explain to people that this was not a "Comair Pilot Group" decision, but a "JC Lawson" decision. I've heard the argument that the Comair Pilots should have "done something" to stop it if they really didn't approve of it. Somehow my retort of, "Just like we can stop LM from doing something we don't approve of? :rolleyes:" doesn't seem to register.

I understand the frustration and apparent feeling of betrayal that a wholly-owned subsidiary won't accept the parent company's pilots when they are furloughing. And I'm truly sorry all of those pilots hit the street without a job - I've been there, and it sucks. But this was truly a case of 2 Regional MEC Chairmen attempting to prove whose **** was bigger, and Lawson lost that egocentric game, at his Pilot Group's expense. I hate that the Comair Pilot Group is still paying the price after all these years, due to misplaced blame.

Sorry for the thread hijack - I'm just so relieved to hear that someone else "gets it," and I couldn't help but chime in.

It's because the comair pilots didn't jump and scream and get lawson to change the direction.

Moak has generally done pretty well, but when he makes a stupid decision we jump and scream, and change has happened.

Not to you specifically - Other than the Compass Q&A statement, and a Code-a-phone saying they were sold do we have any other facts to support all the hand wringing and teeth-gnashing over what the future of the flows are?

I love a good conspiracy theory, but isn't all of this a little premature until we hear what, *if any* changes are being proposed?

Why did DALPA and DAL allow the outsourcing of more than 50 percent of Delta flying if they are so concerned about the DAL brand?

Also, I was not referring to DAL. I was referring to ALPA using its capital for military pilots over dues paying ALPA members and how that is wrong.

When LM does something we disagree with, you'll hear plenty of dissent in the ranks. When JCL wrote that letter, we heard......nothing. Absent any other evidence, that silence equals approval, IMO.

I try to not include the Comair guys who were hired there after that period, FWIW--

"we heard nothing"

How would you hear? Jumpseats? Web board threads? Trick them into thinking you are Wilson Polling? There were plenty of pilots who were surprised by JC's missive and plenty who thought it was a bad idea.

We might talk to each other, but how often would we (you and I) engage another airline's jumpseater with a "hey our MEC Chair stinks" type conversation? Most of us keep jump seat chatter very polite.

You also assume the average Comair guy was even aware of the letter. Certainly awareness was much higher on the Delta side than the Comair side.

I'm just curious how do you know these things and objectively quantify them?

Any examples?

I pressed the CPZ president face to face on this issue the day of the sale in the MSP crew room. What I got was the following:

1) The 60-day window to re-negotiate the flow agreement was required by DAL as part of the purchase agreement. Failure to accept this term was a deal breaker.

2) The terms were described as such: CPZ, CP-ALPA, DAL, and D-ALPA are to sit down to re-negotiate the terms of the flow which will be limited to 60 days. If acceptable terms are agreed upon, then the flow (in its new form) will remain in place. If terms are not agreed upon after 60 days, CPZ managment (per the purchase agreement) must exercise the clause in the PWA that allows them to unilaterally cancel the flow UP portion of the flow agreement.

3) The CPZ president talks a lot without saying much of use to anyone.

After a few days of thought, I am of the feeling that there is something else is going on here. The pieces do not add up and I can't shake the feeling that this is step one of many.

But I've been known to be wrong a few times before.

Scope and Compass were big. It was all over the L&G thread, a website was created called Combine Compass and then the LEC elections happened and there was a lot of anti-LM rancor leading up to those. Not to mention LOA's coming out of nowhere signed sealed and delivered and people bieng upset. Not to mention the whole CPZ MEC split issue. And then there were complaints about communication with DALPA. The silence from the MEC and LM was replaced with fears the MEC wasn't protecting only a portion of the pilot group.

Then things improved in the communication side significantly with a better flow of the quality of information which was greatly appreciated especially as we went into the HND, CPZ MEC split and slot swap. We started to get more insight into the MEC and a lot of things began to make more sense as time and company events unfolded. Although much of the communication has had to be limited for good reason. Operating in silence isn't a bad thing.

Eventually the bayonets were put down and repalced by calmer waters and general silliness on the L&G-Delta thread.

Every indication is you're not wrong. There is a lot going on and the more you read the right people on this forum, watch company activity and read and listen to what the company is saying the more we - as a group - realize you're 100% right, this seems to be the first of many steps.

Ohhh no, no, no...

Ad Lib you subscribe to the typical faulty premise of RJDC spinmiesters. ASA and CMR flew - DELTA - code, under strict conditions set forth in the Delta Pilots PWA. CMR code did not "become" Delta code just because of wholly owned subsidiary status.

You are not a Delta pilot just because you fly Delta code under subsidiary contract. Wholly owned or not. I've heard this all before, 10 years ago from Dan Ford and others. He had this fantasy that CMR was really Delta now because of "operational integration", "wholly owned", "flying Delta code", blah, blah, blah. He felt this obligated ALPA to merge seniority lists, and yes, they wanted a DOH list. RJDC and fruitless lawsuits followed. Haberman and the lawyers got rich and Comair still is what it is today.

It was all very tiring and pointless then, and I'm getting weary just thinking about it now. Sorry I even turned this smarmy rock over again.

Wow, you must have a really big one.

Yes, I see now. So the CMR strike probably was a good thing for him. It no doubt funneled more flying his way.

You probably had to be there to recognize the audacity of the CMR MEC leadership at the time. Im sure it looks petty to outsiders now, over a decade later.

*sigh* Don't be fatuous, Jeffrey.

The Comair guys significantly raised the bar for regional pilots. The contract they struck to get led directly to the signing of excellent contracts at Horizon and Air Wisconsin, in the same way that the NWA guys striking in 98 helped secure C2K at DL. Pattern bargaining, of course, plus providing management everywhere with a sobering look at the potential consequences if they don't play ball.

In the end, you're right, the strike and their increased costs made Comair a goat in Delta's eyes and they've been thrashed accordingly ever since, their flying farmed out elsewhere to lowest bidders. It's simply too easy to shift contracted flying around under current scope clauses for regional pilots to significantly raise the bar and not be beat down. My original response to you wasn't stating that the strike was ultimately good for Comair pilots, but it was something that we as trade unionists should recognize as a positive step for our profession rather than denigrate.

And for what it's worth, I'm not a big fan of the RJDC, JD Lawson, or the despicable CMR policy of making DL furloughees resign their DL seniority. I just feel the more unity there is across airlines and across regional-major lines, the stronger ALPA will be.

The difference between the groups is that the local meetings I've been to have involved some healthy debate between LM and the guys who disagree with him. From my former buddies at CMR, no one stood up at a meeting JC attended and attacked his stance. The silence by the majority generally means support for the leader's decisions. That's okay as everyone is free to make their own actions, but with every action comes the consequence of said action.

I saw pilots standing up to JC Lawson and saying it was a bad idea, even Comair pilots.

I told him it was a bad idea standing in the hall underneath ATL gate C23 when he came to town.

OK, but anyone who read my posts on the CPZ deal surely realize this went down just exactly as predicted. One reason I've been sitting back and watching is simply because this transaction wasn't "news." Actually amusing to see it done before many could even say, what tha ... .

Threats on the horizon are:

• Compass will fight their scope restrictions and / or unilateral flow
• Compass may join Teamsters
• Compass, or one of the other larger outsourced labor groups may threaten ALPA's exclusivity on Delta bargaining
• Pilots will continue to question ALPA's role. Out of frustration will call for decertification. Decertification would be disastrous for Delta pilots as such a move would fall right into the hands of those who want our seat at the table

There has been no change what so ever in the strategic direction our negotiations (or management's word "discussions") have taken. We still facilitated a sale of Delta flying. Delta is still, slowly, getting out of the business of operating an airline.

It is difficult to say if there has been any changes in our Chairman's actual positions. I suspected his promotion of flow through agreements was political, but many disagreed and believe his sincerity on the subject. His talking points have been updated and are more respectful of those with scope concerns.

Our current scope isn't as strong as it could be, because it does not make a lot of objective sense. The regional guys will eventually leverage these weaknesses and ally with management if we get forced into concessionary bargaining. Holes, as I see them:

• Manufacturers, the FAA and Airlines see aircraft as Types. The E175 is a family of jets capable of 122 seats / 4,200 miles. In effect, we have outsourced the 100 seat Type. By not recapturing it, we risk losing it. (I think we'll hold on around the current limits, but it will be tough fight because it just isn't a very clear objective line)
• The 76 seat limit is an economic compromise built around bankruptcy data. If we increase our pay rates, pressure will increase to operate these aircraft to their full capacities. Worse if we are in concessionary bargaining and the Company just really needs to maximize revenue.
• We still have a very fragmented group of pilots doing the bottom half of Delta flying. As the heat gets turned up, they will look for ways to protect their jobs entering into concessionary bargaining which further upsets the 76 seat compromise.

ALPA has an excellent opportunity to prove itself in these upcoming "discussions." All the parties are at the table to talk scope. Lets hope for the best. We have some very bright people representing us. If all of our scope wrangling had an effect, we shall see.

You are back Bar, where have you been?

PM sent. Mostly got burned out on APC. Figured I would skip the "I told you so's" and wait until there was some actual new negotiations to try to weigh in on.

The sale of Compass was yesterday's news the minute the representational vote was tallied. Now management wants to negotiate scope. Those "discussions" are the actual news, since they presage future activity.

Bar,

Welcome back. I was hoping to see what you thought about all this. Good stuff, let me reread #277 above a few more times and take it all in.

You're still the best informed guy on regional issues I've read. Thanks for taking time to post.

Ferd

[HTML]IF the Compass guys get shellacked and fight it, then he, UGBSM and Brake Chatter will have a whole new group to enjoy beating down. Save your torches and pitchforks boys for the next group of uppidty regional pilots./HTML]

Do you really want to have this conversation?

I will have to agree.

The only thing bringing up all of this stuff that happened eight plus years ago does is reopen very deep wounds. It is divisive and helps no one.

CPS guys learn from the past. There may be opportunities here, but presupposing the debate is not a good primer.