This whole thing is unfortunate. It seems big daddy D had it out for more than just Freedom.

Is the flowthrough agreement done with? What about Comair, are they next on the chopping block? From what I've heard the two don't like each other very well.

With Delta's upcoming need for pilots (a lot of them), it seems counterproductive to cancel a flowthrough, but I'm just a peeon.

Good luck to everyone.

If you look at what we just did with MESA it might not be too baffling. Sell them to Trans States and Pinnacle for $83 million, let them run them like crap and not meet performance metrics or let them get tired of losing money doing the flying at risk, cancel the contract, take the jets back since we own them, give the jets to someone else who will pay you some money for the opportunity to fly for Delta, repeat process. Delta is out nothing and makes $83 million dollars.

They may not cancel the flow initially but what happens to the flow when Trans States shuts down the flying because they are losing money doing it on an at risk basis? If they cease to exist, then the flow ceases to exist with it. If they are going to fly all the Compass and Mesaba jets at risk on seperate certificates like SkyWest does with ASA, then I give them about 18 months until they throw in the towel and give the jets back. Jets then go to RAH or SKYW and there is no flow left and they don't have to reduce the 76 seaters because the companies technically went out of business. I think the reason SkyWest wasn't in on this deal is they don't want to fly jets on an at risk basis. It will be interesting to see what kind of contracts Trans States and Pinnacle will have with Delta for this flying, but if it is at risk flying with performance measures to meet, I'm not sure how long it will last.

So who ultimately decides whether flow continues or not from CPZ to Delta?

Does the sale of CPZ necessitate that no flow-ups will occur?

If the new owner of CPZ determines whether flow-ups will occur, would that make sense financially to continue w/ a flow-thru agreement? Fairly junior workforce (low cost) and flow-ups would drive up training costs for the new owner.

The flow-thru might not be the ONLY reason for the sale, but it must have been a contributing factor. The timing is just too good for Delta to believe that it was a coincidence. This was likely in the works for some time as flow-thru agreements generally don't make good financial sense.

Didn't Continental have a flow-thru agreement w/ Express years back? I can remember some comments in Bethune's book that were highly critical of flow-thru agreements; that they were not good for business. Based on this history of flow-thrus falling apart, should we be surprised by the sale of CPZ and Mesaba?

I'm amazed how many pilots keep falling for the old "flowthrough" sales job. Fool me once.....

Very true, I fell for it once. Smoke and mirrors....

Just like "no furlough" clauses at the majors which result in guys being furloughed any way, and then the flying flows DOWN to the regionals and more guys are hired. Works both ways, unfortunately.

Yes we had one at Continental Express and Gordon Bethune hated it. It took him about 5 years to get rid of it. Lots of similarities if you look at how the COEX flow-thru was dismantled and what is now happening at Compass. It is no surprise to me that CPS was sold. It will also be no surprise to see them try to get out of honoring the flow-thru. However, they have some fairly clear language on what happens to it if CPS is sold. The biggest negative is that the number of 76-seat jets will be reduced UNLESS DALPA along with the new CPS MEC agrees to let them out of that clause. If they don't get out of it then all the guys on property now should get to flow to Delta. Any newhires or Trans States guys are probably not going to benefit from the flow-thru.

Mainline managers HATE flowthrough. Always have always will. Why? Because they and they ALONE want to determine who gets hired.

Just like regional managers who refuse to interview furloughed mainline guys. Again, works both ways.

I guess when the management said at the CVG meeting, "we're getting out of the regional business", they weren't kidding.

Whoa Joe, you're back !!!

Been doing a little studying, and from what I can see the Mesaba flow will be done when they are no longer an affiliate of Delta. The Mesaba flow is LOA 2008-01 which can be cancelled when they are no longer an affiliate which they will not be once they are sold to Pinnacle. They will then just be subject to 2006-10 like Pinnacle and all the other DCI carriers for preferential hiring but no flow-thru. The Compass flow is 2006-14. So they can stop the Mesaba flow but not the Compass flow LOA or the DCI carrier preferential hiring LOA without lowering the number of 71-76 seat jets to 85.

Unless DALPA gives up that exception, the Compass flow and DCI preferential hiring LOA should remain intact after they are sold. The only grey area I see is the conflict between the LOA stating that the flow can be terminated for newhires without affecting the cap while the JCBA states that if the flow ceases to be available at the affiliate or another carrier then the cap goes to 85. Nothing is said in the JCBA that applies to the flow being stopped for newhires. I guess a high paid lawyer will be able to read between the lines and tell us what the deal is as far as newhires being subject to the flow or not.

I think we need to all call our reps and tell them what we want in return for giving up the exception in the JCBA because I'm sure the company will shortly be asking to delete that little nugget. That flow-down is a great protection against furloughs even if it does mean flowing down to Trans States in the future. We better not give it up.

Look at the numbers. Delta is not getting out of the regional business, they are only restructuring it using the same methodology they have for years.

When more than 50% of domestic narrow body flying is outsourced, we are only making a distinction that it is flying that Delta pilots do not perform. It is not our core business model any more. But the decreases I expected to see were reversed by these long term agreements.

It is cheap political sugar water and very popular.

Looks like to me that we're reclaiming that flying for our guys, not that we're bailing on narrowbody flying. This is a good thing for DAL guys, not an abdication of a business model.

Have any numbers to support that?

As I read the announcements, the involved carriers will continue to operate status quo with growth which correlates with the operations they just bought with contract extensions. If anything we are now contractually restricted from pulling down this flying.

If the flying is at risk ( as stated on the web boards in CONTRAST to what managements have published ) then maybe a bankruptcy could take some out, but no one bought into this deal expecting to lose money.

But hey, I'm always on the look out for good news. I;d love to read what you're quoting from.

Rocky-
Excellent analysis.
One discrepancy - I would argue that the Mesaba flow also must continue or the exception applies.

What do you make of the words "or at another carrier" in the exception?
I think that would be Mesaba. If its not Mesaba, what is the purpose of that phrase?

That's the wrong Rochester.

How bout RST? :D

Its an opinion dude. Ergo the phrase "looks to me like...." Relax.

Mo better, thanks.

DCI flying shrank 4.2% in the first 5 months of this year, and is continuing to shrink this year. A lot more 50 seaters will be parked this year. That does not include the large amount that were parked in the last year. The Saabs will also be parked.

Mainline capacity fell only 1.2% in that time frame. That seems like regional flying shrinking to me.

Comair has been on the chopping block for 5 years and is already halfway chopped. Death by papercuts.

By "the two don't like each other very well" you must mean the several hundred DeltaSouth and Comair pilots that still hold a grudge because the former Comair MEC president was a real toolbag.

That's right. Thanks.

Guess I was hoping that this deal would remove obligations from Delta for future flying and am disappointed that did not happen.

Hey I'm with you. I'm bummed we couldn't get Compass on our list, but what a horrid mess it would've caused. This is just another battle in our never ending war. :(

To be continued.......... :mad:

I've been lurking. Amused at all the nashing of teeth over something that was very predictable. It's kinda like watching the movie "Ground Hog Day".

Will momma Delta still be buying airplanes for these guys?

What this looks like, is the way it was back n the early 80's when I started my career in aviation, Airlines like Air Wisconsin, Golden Gate, Ransome, Henson, Aspen and Rocky Mountain,(to name a few) were "True Airlines" at different airports they allied with different majors but flew under their OWN "Colors". It appears to me NOW that after the UAL Express, American Eagle, Delta Connection, Continental Express, and USAir Express have run their course the "True Independent" regional might again come about and stop all of this "perversion",, Where the Best and Brightest Pilots are going to the "Majors", where the DBA's and flyiing "False Colors" might and should come to an End. After 30 years It might be time. The airlines publish their schedules, Own and FLY their CHOSEN equipment and manage THEIR busness. One thing for sure, You'll see "Riff-Raff" Management like Mesa head to the "Trash heap" and solid managers come to the fore front. It will initially be lousy for the Pilots, but change is usually LOUSY in itself, Isn't it?? Nobody likes upheval, but a little revolution and culling of the herd every now and then is a good thing. America was built on adversity and THIS is about as adverse as it's going to GET!!. My personal take on flow ups and flow downs?? They're a Smoke screen devised to keep a Pilot "compliant" and subserviant to protect his suposed "POSITION".. Pilots as a group are the biggest bunch of revolutionaries as there ever were. Mao Tse Tung could have learned a thing or two from some Airline Pilots. They'll stage a revolution at ANY time for darn mear Nothing. And!! See "Merit" in How it was Staged !! As Painful as this seems?? This might be the "Renissance" of commercial Aviation. It looks that way to Me at least. You guys are very free to disagree and many of you very well Might,

Good post, I tend to agree. The regional bubble has burst IMHO.

Personally, I think Flowthrough Agreements are a waste of energy and time. I can't think of a time when a flowthrough mechanism activated and worked successfully for flow-up or flow-down pilots. That's not to say that it's never happened, just that more often than not when it's time for a pilot group to flowthrough, it usually is followed by a bitter disagreement from the other side.

Promises cost management nothing, and I can't think back to any job I've had in this industry where a manager was always promising me one thing or another.

I'm willing to give up all the RJ feed from the 76 seaters that will be no longer allowed! I think we should not give this up for anything.

That said, I would entertain the idea of a sunset clause on the Alaska code share effective 12/31/12 and both of the future DC contribution increases effective immediately.

-vpr

VPR, do you want to take a job protection and get a money return on it?

I know what you are saying, but trading job/scope protections for money is something we need to get away from.

ALL DCI flying being performed by ALPA carriers.

No more DCI contracts signed or renewed.

Some sort of quid for who this protection was for.

AS sunset clause. Domestic scope clause

A change to the way section one is worded, stating that we fly all DL coded flying with a carve out for what is there and termination dates on it.

Stuff like that.

True, and has been shown to play out the same way time and time again!
It all comes down to $$$

Fly Safe.

Stunning news! A mainline sells a couple of wholly owned providers. Is this the first time that has happened? Was the sale of PCL a tactic to avoid a flow thru?

I'd be surprised if the flow was a prime factor in the decision. DL has too many RJ's in the system. At one time (pre NW transaction), many of those RJs were used to compete against each other. When you read the word "synergy" in the DL/NW merger announcement, you were thinking of overlapping management positions. How many counted RJs?

As long as DL gets the feed they want, which they will through the arrangements that has them buying, fueling, scheduling, and marketing the operation at the DCIs, they are wise to divest the administrative burden. A fee for departure set up simplifies the messy "human" part of the business.

In the Big Picture, the flow probably isn't the motivator for the sale. It is to us, because we don't worry about the Big Picture.

No probably not -the cost structure modification of the ASA's and ability terminate contracts for performance compliance is probably worth far more than the sale price.

Don't be fooled by the value of the flow though - the ability to roll back to 85 acft if its terminated together with the real job protection of the flow down is probably one of the strongest bits of Scope protection we have.

As to the messy human part, I hope you realize they would simplify that to your level just as quickly given the opportunity.

ACL-
I know what you are saying but it is somewhat twisted logic in this case.
We have a chance to cut out a large number of 76 seat jets.

Do you really want to start counting larger numbers of RJs as job protection for mainline?
If that's the case, why not INCREASE the number of 76 seaters at DCI? Not my idea of job protection.

Here's a novel idea - how about using Delta seniority list pilots to fly those jets?

I just spent 20 minutes talking to a Compass guy in the ALPA office. He had a lot of information. He said nobody saw it coming. The Mesaba ALPA guys are all gathered in the office. Lee Moak sent an MEC officer up to the Compass/Mesaba office to help them. There was a big conference call yesterday, and John Prater wasn't helpful. Moak is getting all 3 MECs together next week because of a deadline set by DL to address the flow. DL says the flow down must end. Compass was not prepared to handle the loss of pilots flowing this year. DL told Compass they would be hiring a lot of Compass pilots outside the flow.

Hmmm, There is a contract that addresses the flows. They don't have to do anything. There is no deadline other than a self imposed one.

If I was a little unclear, I prefer to do nothing.

It appears that the language in Section 1 required the removal the 36 overweight 175s and at least the seats out of a lot more. This is good enough for me. Reducing outsourced lift is an increase in job protection imo.

As I also said I would consider "trading" scope for scope as it were.

I consider the Alaska scope language worse than 70 and 76 seat scope. If you read the seat limits that apply to that code share not to mention the lack of or replacement of Delta or Delta branded narrowbody feed on the west cost I consider this worth making a trade of some kind.

Like a said a sunset on the Alaska code share and giving us our DC increases now would be a good start to looking at a trade on scope to me. I will add that I would want to see the permmited RJ count capped at current levels with no increase allowed based on mainline fleet count.

As you said a clause that no future DCI contract will be written or renewed would be fantastic however I don't think that there is anywhere near that kind of leverage here.

-vpr

If I didn't have 22 separate LOAs in my contract binder, I might agree with you.

Puleeze. Only 2 of them address CPZ/flows as far as I know. If more please cite the LOA numbers so I can read for myself