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Originally Posted by Splash
(Post 835936)
I just spent 20 minutes talking to a Compass guy in the ALPA office. He had a lot of information. He said nobody saw it coming. The Mesaba ALPA guys are all gathered in the office. Lee Moak sent an MEC officer up to the Compass/Mesaba office to help them. There was a big conference call yesterday, and John Prater wasn't helpful. Moak is getting all 3 MECs together next week because of a deadline set by DL to address the flow. DL says the flow down must end. Compass was not prepared to handle the loss of pilots flowing this year. DL told Compass they would be hiring a lot of Compass pilots outside the flow.
Don't know why DAL wants a big pow-wow about ending the flow. They can end it anytime they want. All they have to do is remove 68 71-76 seat jets from the fleet. |
Well, I think the flow is over with the sale of CPZ and Mesaba. That is how Delta reads it (contractual language) and when they want something to go a certain way, they almost always get it. The timing of the announcement can only mean that flow was most certainly a motivating factor in the sale. Isn't Delta just starting to ramp up hiring? No coincidence here. I think like most management teams, they also view flow-thru ageements as bad for business. You need people competing for your business in order to drive down cost.
Heck, they can get a judge to reverse his previous decision as seen in the Mesa case. People watching the Mesa case pointed out that the outcome would possibly have consequences for other Delta regional lift providers and I think we're seeing that play out right now with the sale of CPZ and Mesaba. Delta is a huge machine right now. They have mass, a strong will, and a lot of cash. They are quickly changing how they do business and stopping them would sort of be like stopping the Blitzkrieg of '39. I get the impression that they're on a mission. |
Call me ignorant, I don't work for Delta or Compass so I do not know any details or really have any info but I have one question.
Why would DA need to rid themselves of 68 aircraft with 76 seats due to ending a flow with Compass that does not have anywhere close to 68 planes? Just curious call me stupid if you want. |
Originally Posted by Confused
(Post 835954)
Call me ignorant, I don't work for Delta or Compass so I do not know any details or really have any info but I have one question.
Why would DA need to rid themselves of 68 aircraft with 76 seats due to ending a flow with Compass that does not have anywhere close to 68 planes? Just curious call me stupid if you want. The LOA which established the Compass Flow has a clause which states 'if the flow becomes unavailable the number of 71-76 seat jets will be reduced to 85'. 153-68=85, right? I'm not a math dude. :o |
Originally Posted by TANSTAAFL
(Post 835948)
Puleeze. Only 2 of them address CPZ/flows as far as I know. If more please cite the LOA numbers so I can read for myself
My point is that there are many things in our contract that meet the "don't have to do anything" definition...yet we "do" something. I think this is one more. |
Originally Posted by vprMatrix
(Post 835884)
I would entertain the idea of a sunset clause on the Alaska code share effective 12/31/12
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Originally Posted by johnso29
(Post 835950)
Don't know why DAL wants a big pow-wow about ending the flow. They can end it anytime they want. All they have to do is remove 68 71-76 seat jets from the fleet.
He MUST be stopped before he can trade away any more of our contract. Call your reps. |
Originally Posted by Splash
(Post 835958)
I was referring to the fact that we seem to negotiate many items that we already have in our contract. We are constantly amending our contract.
My point is that there are many things in our contract that meet the "don't have to do anything" definition...yet we "do" something. I think this is one more. I understood your point and you are dead-on target. This is not DALPA's problem. Our contract is clear. Flow stops = Reduce the RJs to 85. |
Disregard..........
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Originally Posted by Check Essential
(Post 835960)
Here we go again. Another "emergency" caused by management and Moak calls an emergency meeting to solve management's problem.
He MUST be stopped before he can trade away any more of our contract. Call your reps. How do you figure this is management's problem? The flow thru was OUR creation, and it is in OUR interests to preserve it. If you think Moak should turn his back on Compass and Mesaba when we are a party to the flow agreements, then say it. I think I'll call my reps again, and remind them to ignore pilots who believe every negotiation results in concessions. |
Originally Posted by Splash
(Post 835969)
Thanks for the warning! I've already called my reps to encourage them to support Moak's efforts to protect the flow thru in light of recent events.
How do you figure this is management's problem? The flow thru was OUR creation, and it is in OUR interests to preserve it. If you think Moak should turn his back on Compass and Mesaba when we are a party to the flow agreements, then say it. I think I'll call my reps again, and remind them to ignore pilots who believe every negotiation results in concessions. I think Moak should turn his back on Compass and Mesaba. How's that? He is the Delta MEC Chairman. Not Compass or Mesaba. Dump those 76 seat RJs right now. Or keep 'em and give me a 25% raise. I don't know how you figure that flow through was our creation or its in our interest to keep it. Those jets and that flow were crammed down the NWA pilot's throats in bankruptcy. Now we have a rare chance to get some scope back. The Delta pilots have been stressing the importance of scope and stopping the outsourcing for years. The recently elected ATL reps got their jobs because of the emphasis they placed on scope. Now they get to act on their campaign rhetoric. |
I appreciate your candor. I don't think there's a 25% raise in play based on the value of jets that *might* be skimmed if the flow thru dies.
I think there is more long term value to us a mainline pilot group by keeping the Compass and Mesaba pilots connected to us by a flow. The TERMS of the flow were not all our doing, but since I know we had been trying to get a flow thru at NW for many years, I know it was our creation. |
When was CPZ created? Why was CPZ created? Why was a flow-thru added and who added it?
Are the pilots at Delta divided with regard to the flow thru? If they are divided, does whether they were from NWA or the original Delta determine their outlook on the flow agreement? |
what if delta cancels the flow and drops the number of 76 seaters to 85 by converting the other 76 seaters to 70 seaters (adding more 1st class seats like they're currently doing to the 70 seaters dropping to 66 seats).
IF they did that they could cx the flow and meet the contract. They've been saying they wanted more 1st class seats. that could be their plan in this. we'll see |
Originally Posted by The Duke
(Post 835996)
When was CPZ created? Why was CPZ created? Why was a flow-thru added and who added it?
Are the pilots at Delta divided with regard to the flow thru? If they are divided, does whether they were from NWA or the original Delta determine their outlook on the flow agreement? Lots of history in the answer to your question. Short version -- it was done in the NWA bankruptcy under the threat of 1113 contract rejection. Management was demanding more outsourced flying and the pilots were able to get some flow-through language in return. Management held all the cards at the time because they had a federal BK judge to help. This is not a North/South thing at all. We all live under the same scope clause now. |
The Definitive Answer
OK guys, I finally dug up NWA LOA 2006-14 to see exactly what it says about termination of flow after selling Compass. Here's the language:
LETTER 2006-14 (76-Seat Small Regional Jet Flow Through Agreement) LETTER OF AGREEMENT between NORTHWEST AIRLINES, INC. and THE AIR LINE PILOTS in the service of NORTHWEST AIRLINES, INC. as represented by AIR LINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION, INTERNATIONAL This Letter of Agreement is made and entered into in accordance with the provisions of Title II of the Railway Labor Act, as amended, by and between Northwest Airlines, Inc., (hereinafter referred to as the “Company”) and the Air Line Pilots in the service of Northwest Airlines, Inc. as represented by the Air Line Pilots Association, International (hereinafter referred to as “ALPA”). WHEREAS, the Company and ALPA have agreed to certain modifications of the NWA/ALPA Collective Bargaining Agreement (the “Pilots Agreement”) in furtherance of the Company’s effort to improve liquidity and profitability and successfully restructure its capital structure and operations and reorganize through the Chapter 11 bankruptcy process; and WHEREAS, the Modifications embodied in this Letter of Agreement pertain to the agreement of the parties to permit the Company to establish a Feeder Carrier Affiliate pursuant to the provisions of Section 1 B.7.c.(7)(d) of the ALPA Restructuring Agreement (hereinafter “Feeder Carrier Affiliate ”), and WHEREAS, the parties have agreed to a 76 Seat Small Regional Jet Flow Through term sheet and are desirous of reflecting the terms thereof in this Letter of Agreement. NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, the undersigned parties do hereby agree as follows: A. General. 1. This Letter of Agreement governs employment opportunities at the company and at the Feeder Carrier Affiliate for all NWA pilots with a system seniority number together with future pilots employed by the Company and pilots employed by the Feeder Carrier Affiliate. In the event of a sale of Feeder Carrier Affiliate such that it is no longer an affiliate of NWA, the flow up rights of Feeder Carrier Affiliate new hire pilots (Sections D and H below) can be terminated by the Feeder Carrier without impacting the Company’s upper cap in Section 1.B.7.c. (e.g. upper cap of 90) The ramifications of a stoppage of flow down rights of NWA furloughees (both current and future laid off NWA pilots, including new hire NWA pilots from Feeder Carrier Affiliate and elsewhere) in this circumstance are addressed in Section 1.B.7.c. (e.g. reduced to lower cap of 55). (snip) |
One of the reasons I voted no to the BK cram-down contract, was I said no NEWCO (Compass) and I ment it (also the duration of the contract).
I see, and understand, everything Splash says (do you live in FSD?). However, maybe I'm not thinking long range enough because I see this as a cake and eat it too opportunity. We let the flows go away and get a scope bump AND we hire all the Compass and Mesaba guys we can....probably higher than the flow numbers anyway. I understand we give up the flow down, but if the DCIs continue to shrink, it could be moot as we need more and more mainline guys. I'm sure I'm not seeing the knight moving into position to take my queen (my biggest chess weakness) so please fire away. Ferd |
Originally Posted by Check Essential
(Post 835999)
Duke-
Lots of history in the answer to your question. Short version -- it was done in the NWA bankruptcy under the threat of 1113 contract rejection. Management was demanding more outsourced flying and the pilots were able to get some flow-through language in return. Management held all the cards at the time because they had a federal BK judge to help. This is not a North/South thing at all. We all live under the same scope clause now. Many things, of course, have changed since then. |
Originally Posted by JungleBus
(Post 836001)
Therefore, the language in the CBA that states that the 71-76 seater cap reverts downward if the "flow provisions of LOA 2006-10 and 2006-14 cease to be available" appears to be superseded by the language within the LOA itself. Compass can cancel the flow up, only the flow down has to remain in place. :mad:
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Bring the RJs over the cap to mainline!
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Originally Posted by bored
(Post 836007)
Just curious... why do so many mainline boys hate the flow so much?
In the long run, doing away with Delta flying being performed by lower and lower paid pilots on larger and larger airplanes is good for the Compass and Mesaba pilots as well. The mainline boys want to recapture those jobs (and hire the Compass and Mesaba guys to fill them). |
Originally Posted by Ferd149
(Post 836011)
One of the reasons I voted no to the BK cram-down contract, was I said no NEWCO (Compass) and I ment it (also the duration of the contract).
I see, and understand, everything Splash says (do you live in FSD?). Maybe I'm not thinking long range enough because I see this as a cake and eat it too opportunity. We let the flows go away and get a scope bump AND we hire all the Compass and Mesaba guys we can....probably higher than the flow numbers anyway. I understand we give up the flow down, but if the DCIs continue to shrink, it could be moot as we need more and more mainline guys. I'm sure I'm not seeing the knight moving in position to take my queen (my biggest chess weakness) so please fire away. Ferd It seems that future attrition at Delta due to retirements will be your strongest form of job protection going forward. |
Originally Posted by DAL4EVER
(Post 836015)
Bring the RJs over the cap to mainline!
If they keep the "one way flow" Delta's obligations to DAPLA are met. All of this was written to benefit and protect "mainline pilots", not potential off the street Compass pilots. Lots of holes that no one was paying attention to because at the time no one represented the interests of those who eventually ended up making up most of the list. |
Originally Posted by The Duke
(Post 836021)
As the flow will likely be canceled, I cannot see Delta hiring large numbers of CPZ and Mesaba pilots with the existing pool of applicants out there. If anything, I would expect Delta to move away from hiring pilots in large numbers from these 2 carriers as this would likely disrupt their ability to feed for Delta...the very reason Delta is likely selling these 2 carriers. This was one of the inherent problems in the flow-up in Delta's eyes.
It seems that future attrition at Delta due to retirements will be your strongest form of job protection going forward. Plus, if you're really into conspiracy theories and Delta wants to win more Mesa type nonperformance suites, hiring more CPZ and Mesaba guys helps. Ok, ok, I'll take the foil out of my hat:D |
Originally Posted by FlyinPiker
(Post 836022)
They will only be over the cap if the "flow down" is canceled.
If they keep the "one way flow" Delta's obligations to DAPLA are met. All of this was written to benefit and protect "mainline pilots", not potential off the street Compass pilots. Lots of holes that no one was paying attention to because at the time no one represented the interests of those who eventually ended up making up most of the list. |
I'm not an expert on this subject whatsover but I doubt the sale of Mesaba and CPZ had anything to do with flow thru. It may have been icing on the cake, but really was a none issue.
I think as pilots we all think too much about our personal feelings, and less about the business side. This was just another way for DL to make some quick cash and keep cost down on the regional side. The whipsaw is alive and well! |
I emailed my reps that I don't want them to trade anything for the flow. Those over the cap can come to mainline. Hopefully we'll hire Compass and Mesaba guys to fly them.
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Originally Posted by Check Essential
(Post 836018)
(and hire the Compass and Mesaba guys to fill them).
If that were true, you'd allow the flow for those on property. Perhaps NWA should have been a little more careful when hiring, otherwise Delta would have taken their word for it that the Compass pilots were "worthy" of a mainline job. You guys pulled this move out of the over-65 playbook. Pull the ladder up after you reach the top. We existed for your benefit (furlough protection), and now that you don't need us anymore, throw us out with last weeks trash. Someone mentioned something about a moral compass earlier... |
My hope is that those that were hired at Compass under the impression that they will one day flow are able to do so. While most of us know better to ever count on anything, the level that compass pilots have been "lead on" to believe this would actually materialize is pretty extreme.
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I think that the current Compass guys should flow.
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Originally Posted by JungleBus
(Post 836001)
OK guys, I finally dug up NWA LOA 2006-14 to see exactly what it says about termination of flow after selling Compass. Here's the language:
Therefore, the language in the CBA that states that the 71-76 seater cap reverts downward if the "flow provisions of LOA 2006-10 and 2006-14 cease to be available" appears to be superseded by the language within the LOA itself. Compass can cancel the flow up, only the flow down has to remain in place. :mad: Do you think that the CPS MEC would willfully give the DAL pilots flow down rights without their quid of a flow up? Would them canceling the flow for us(down) meet the requirements of the PWA stipulating the setback proviso being triggered when the flow becomes unavailable? 153-85 76 seat RJ's) |
Originally Posted by The Duke
(Post 836021)
As the flow will likely be canceled, I cannot see Delta hiring large numbers of CPZ and Mesaba pilots with the existing pool of applicants out there. If anything, I would expect Delta to move away from hiring pilots in large numbers from these 2 carriers as this would likely disrupt their ability to feed for Delta...the very reason Delta is likely selling these 2 carriers. This was one of the inherent problems in the flow-up in Delta's eyes.
It seems that future attrition at Delta due to retirements will be your strongest form of job protection going forward. |
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
(Post 836050)
Just a question(s):
Do you think that the CPS MEC would willfully give the DAL pilots flow down rights without their quid of a flow up? Would them canceling the flow for us(down) meet the requirements of the PWA stipulating the setback proviso being triggered when the flow becomes unavailable? 153-85 76 seat RJ's) They might be able to negotiate away the DAL pilots flow down rights ( at a "cost" I'm sure) come contract time or thru a LOA, but I'm not so sure the CPS MEC is in the position to "give/take" anything in regards to the flow down since these seem to be the blueprints the company was founded on. |
It is in their CBA so yes they can.
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Originally Posted by acl65pilot
(Post 836061)
It is in their CBA so yes they can.
If the flow goes away after all the current compass guys get on property I'm cool with that. But this whole thing has me worried. |
See the best thing about this is, it is in our contract, and if they just cancel the flow as they are allowed to and these guys to not flow up, you know that they will take the nuclear option and nuke our flowdown rights. That is bad for Ma Delta because they will need to park or block off a lot of seat and then pull them out as the seat trigger will be activated.
Best thing to do is take a slow deliberate approach to this. The first flows get system number in August and more each month after that. We need to study this long and hard. It has far reaching ramifications for all pilots. Time is on our side. |
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
(Post 836052)
One thing you forget is that flowing pilots and or targeting hiring from a given regional will lower their labor costs as those costs get reset when they come to mainline. Part of the unintended consequences of the flow.
I would want to know how much it costs to train a new CPZ pilot/captain? The flow-up would result in tremendous cost I would think (wasn't there a ratio of CPZ/Mesaba required in each newhire Delta class?) to CPZ, owned by Delta. The best way around this would be to dump CPZ and Mesaba to Hulas and Pinnacle. Now Delta would no longer have to honor flow ups based on language in the LOA. Let Hulas deal with it. Also, could there be a backroom deal between Delta management and Hulas to limit the number of pilots taken from CPZ? If I'm Hulas and I acquire CPZ, I wouldn't want to get stuck holding the bag and paying for aforementioned training costs resulting from a continuation of flow. Also, how large is the pool of applicants to Delta right now? I've heard numbers ranging from 2100 to over 10,000. Which is it? There are probably some highly qualified applicants in that pool who Delta would like to hire who might otherwise not get a chance if the flow-ups were to occur as stipulated. Were the flow-ups scheduled to interview like other applicants to Delta? Or were they simply going to be entitled to a slot on the basis of their employment/seniority at CPZ or Pinnacle? |
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
(Post 836065)
We need to study this long and hard. It has far reaching ramifications for all pilots. Time is on our side.
Anyway, us CPZ folks have our fingers crossed and are hoping for the best, but are not anywhere near optimistic. So I'm just going to the cabin for the weekend to fish and drink a couple hundred beers. Happy 4th, everyone! Have a great weekend! |
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
(Post 836065)
We need to study this long and hard. It has far reaching ramifications for all pilots...
Also, that's what she said. |
Originally Posted by RoughLandings
(Post 836077)
Unfortunately, I don't think time is on our side. As I was led to believe (by the president of CPZ), there is a 60-day window to renegotiate the terms of the flow. If there is no new agreement in place, Compass management is required to cancel the flow-up provision per the CPZ PWA. This was a stipulation of the TSH purchase agreement that DAL required.
Anyway, us CPZ folks have our fingers crossed and are hoping for the best, but are not anywhere near optimistic. So I'm just going to the cabin for the weekend to fish and drink a couple hundred beers. Happy 4th, everyone! Have a great weekend! |
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