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Airline Pilot Central Forums (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/)
-   Major (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/major/)
-   -   Delta Sells Compass and Mesaba (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/major/51783-delta-sells-compass-mesaba.html)

Bucking Bar 07-08-2010 07:15 AM
Originally Posted by sailingfun (Post 838665)
My simple rule is would it benefit the pilot group as a whole. Does it make sense for the pilot group and can the proper protections be built in. Any changes in scope would also have to be independent of pay. That policy has pretty much been established in the last few contract negotiations where we set the pay rates before we tackled scope. Trading pay for jobs is a slippery slope we don't want to go down.
In a major contract change like this one could be, it should to to memory ratification. The pilot group as a whole will decide what their price is. Personally I believe are minimum opening position in Contract 2012 should be the return of all flying in E170 or larger aircraft to the mainline. It will take time and effort but scope has been improved in contracts since I have been on the property. It can be improved again.
Sailing, Sir it is encouraging to read that. Very positive post.

I merely suggest a change in the order. Scope ends up being left over bargaining. Putting scope first is better for a number of reasons:
  • Currently management sees scope violations at bargaining events. Instead of perceiving an inviolate wall, they see bargaining credits. In the current example we see that the deal is done, THEN they come to ALPA to "discuss."
  • Putting scope first means we CONTROL the flying before we set the rates. It is a stronger negotiating position.
  • Putting scope first communicates that we are serious about our union, our members and unity.

Superpilot92 07-08-2010 07:20 AM
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar (Post 838683)
No vote. Reasoning:

* What if during a downturn Delta can not finance $45,000,000 for each 11 jobs?
* The CASM makes the E175 / E195 superior platform to the MD88 and in some cases is a replacement for the Airbus and 737NG. What if Delta decided to replace the MD88 fleet?
* If things get really ugly, what is easier to modify, (or toss out: (Arbitrary Limit) or (Seniority List) pick one.

As a union, our strongest job advancement position is unity. We have watched one convoluted line in the sand after another fail. Why would we wish to repeat what has not worked?

We should apply objective stress tests to our proposals.
- Would this provision allow one division of Delta to furlough pilots while another division is hiring?
- Would this provision create jobs which are not represented by D-ALPA and pilots who could challenge our exclusivity on Delta flying?
- Does this proposal honor Delta pilot seniority?
- Will this proposal increase the number of Delta pilot jobs?
- Will this proposal in any way harm ANYONE on the Delta seniority list?

Scope is easy when we are growing. Scope has to be built for worst case scenarios.
Agreed. !

NuGuy 07-08-2010 07:23 AM
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar (Post 838692)
Sailing, Sir it is encouraging to read that. Very positive post.

I merely suggest a change in the order. Scope ends up being left over bargaining. Putting scope first is better for a number of reasons:
  • Currently management sees scope violations at bargaining events. Instead of perceiving an inviolate wall, they see bargaining credits. In the current example we see that the deal is done, THEN they come to ALPA to "discuss."
  • Putting scope first means we CONTROL the flying before we set the rates. It is a stronger negotiating position.
  • Putting scope first communicates that we are serious about our union, our members and unity.
So Bar, you're saying that Scope is section 1 for a reason?


Nu

Elliot 07-08-2010 07:29 AM
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar (Post 838689)
For some reason, we don't play the game defensively. Must just be the arrogance of figuring we can't be beaten, ever.
Bar,

Absolutely correct on all accounts. We don't play the game "defensively" because we're in a "reactive" mindset, instead of treating these issues "proactively".

There is always hope that each contract has an "ironclad" response to "scope" and ultimately, "scope erosion". (Must I bring up what happened to Midwest?) The scary part about all of this, I believe, is that the sale of Compass & Mesaba to "people like" Hulas and Co. are creating "UBER REGIONALS" that'll soon replace mainline domestic feed similarly to what happened with Republic/Midwest/Frontier.

GJ

acl65pilot 07-08-2010 07:35 AM
Originally Posted by Gearjerk (Post 838703)
Bar,

Absolutely correct on all accounts. We don't play the game "defensively" because we're in a "reactive" mindset, instead of treating these issues "proactively".

There is always hope that each contract has an "ironclad" response to "scope" and ultimately, "scope erosion". (Must I bring up what happened to Midwest?) The scary part about all of this, I believe, is that the sale of Compass & Mesaba to "people like" Hulas and Co. are creating "UBER REGIONALS" that'll soon replace mainline domestic feed similarly to what happened with Republic/Midwest/Frontier.

GJ
There are many pilots what would be more than happy to see progression at their current regional job than to come over to mainline as well. We as pilots are our own worst enemies.

LeineLodge 07-08-2010 08:10 AM
Originally Posted by acl65pilot (Post 838708)
There are many pilots what would be more than happy to see progression at their current regional job than to come over to mainline as well. We as pilots are our own worst enemies.
Which is exactly why DALPA should be looking out for ourselves first. These other groups (not necessarily the pilots, but in some cases yes) will gladly grow at our expense. We should make no apologies about securing OUR flying.

I don't understand the politically correct memos that come out such as the one yesterday. I realize there is a process, but what is so wrong with saying "We are not willing to budge on scope, at all." I did not get a warm and fuzzy feeling reading that memo.

UnusualAttitude 07-08-2010 08:15 AM
Originally Posted by acl65pilot (Post 838708)
There are many pilots what would be more than happy to see progression at their current regional job than to come over to mainline as well. We as pilots are our own worst enemies.
I agree with that statement 100%. Some people simply can't see more than a year or so down the road. It is unfortunate.

Bucking Bar 07-08-2010 08:42 AM
Originally Posted by Gearjerk (Post 838703)
Bar,

Absolutely correct on all accounts. We don't play the game "defensively" because we're in a "reactive" mindset, instead of treating these issues "proactively".

There is always hope that each contract has an "ironclad" response to "scope" and ultimately, "scope erosion". (Must I bring up what happened to Midwest?) The scary part about all of this, I believe, is that the sale of Compass & Mesaba to "people like" Hulas and Co. are creating "UBER REGIONALS" that'll soon replace mainline domestic feed similarly to what happened with Republic/Midwest/Frontier.

GJ
Actually, I think pilots are just overly optimistic for several reasons:
  • First, Pilots are people who have their stuff together and expect others to have their stuff together. Good preparation usually gets good results. We are engaged in a profession which pulls off an impressive task - powered flight - safely, on time and economically.
  • Second, we have optimism that any fully invested person has. Our professions are tied to our employers. Just as everyone thinks their house is probably worth more than it is and their kids are the most talented, we work for the best airlines. Who needs to worry, we are the best!
  • Smile and the world smiles with you. Con Artists depend on the basic human trait of always looking for opportunity and good news. Politicians get elected on promises to make things better. Contrast Jimmy Carter and Ronald Reagan. Austerity does not sell.
IMHO Comass was a completely proactive and well engineered action that took years to execute.

It is VERY encouraging to me to read folks like Sailing talk about recapturing 76 seat flying. The course to getting this fixed is to convince ALPA leadership the merits of unity, for them to assign the evaluation to subject matter experts and then to make that our negotiating agenda.

There are reasons the line was set at 76 seats. It would be great to have an open and candid discussion of what we intend to define as "Delta Flying." There are encouraging signs, both in posts like Sailings and MEC Communications.

acl65pilot 07-08-2010 08:47 AM
Originally Posted by LeineLodge (Post 838738)
Which is exactly why DALPA should be looking out for ourselves first. These other groups (not necessarily the pilots, but in some cases yes) will gladly grow at our expense. We should make no apologies about securing OUR flying.

I don't understand the politically correct memos that come out such as the one yesterday. I realize there is a process, but what is so wrong with saying "We are not willing to budge on scope, at all." I did not get a warm and fuzzy feeling reading that memo.
1) Realize the we live in a big ole world and that little memo is probably in the hands of half of the DCI pilots.

2) Along with one we live in a sue happy legal word. We state this openly and in print, you better start a 2% assessment for all of the lawsuits. Understand that many things you want may be said behind closed doors.

3) Read our By-Laws and Policy manual if you have any question as to the charge the MEC has. As was the initial design and structure of the National ALPA, units like DALPA are charged with looking out for the Delta pilots' interest. As with the company, sometimes our interests align with other groups on a greater scale than the day to day stuff here at the airline level. That is what National ALPA is.

As always if you do not agree that this is the direction we are taking, either get involved or tell your reps. We have a lot of guys that are spending almost all of their free time listening and communicating with this pilot group .

Bucking Bar 07-08-2010 08:47 AM
Originally Posted by UnusualAttitude (Post 838741)
I agree with that statement 100%. Some people simply can't see more than a year or so down the road. It is unfortunate.
Well, for some it is a good deal. ASA, Skywest and Republic Holdings are all talking about fleets the size of Continental's.


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