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Old 07-22-2010 | 10:36 AM
  #101  
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I made this post about 14 months ago and I'm too lazy to think about the subject all over again, so here's the cut and paste.

The problem
Regarding: spin training, stall tng vs speed awareness, Gulfstream, PFT, commuting, pilot pay, and whatever other current topics have been offered to explain the reason Colgan 3407 fell out of the sky. All are valid topics, but they don't address the real problem. That problem is actually very simple. It's a two part problem, but it IS simple.

Part One. Pilots who have not learned their craft have been allowed to sit in the seat of an airliner. More later.
Part Two. The airline pilot certification system is not capable of catching the pilots who don't YET belong in the seat of an airplane carrying people for hire.

About my first point. For decades, a pilot spent many years as a civilian actually flying airplanes. Either as an instructor, or freight dawg flying checks, or any one of hundreds of other positions that allowed/forced the pilot to gain real stick and rudder time. Military pilots accelerated the process, but the large majority of their time was spent either training, or being trained. Either way, both backgrounds allowed a pilot to learn real flying skills and build real world experience. These pilots had the experiences that allowed flying to become somewhat instinctive. Flying, just as driving, becomes somewhat instinctive after many miles and hours.

Over the last fifteen (or so) years, the industry exploited the intent of the certification system and started putting people into airliners that just didn't belong in an airliner at that stage of their career. Management justified this because it met the letter of the law. But the rules were written in a time when the only pilots being hired into an airliner with less than 1000 hours were highly trained military pilots. (I'm civilian trained, but I recognize that a Navy trained F18 guy with 250 hours is better trained than the average civilian commercial pilot applicant)

Thinking back to when Pinnacle had an empty leg crash and on this Colgan crash, it is obvious that the aeronautical knowledge, decision making and skills of pilots who go straight to an airliner with only a few hundred hours are potentially lacking when a situation arises that demands good flying instincts.


When one thinks about it, the airline environment is sheltered. We never overbank, over pitch, underpitch etc. We always keep everything in the middle of the envelope. If a pilot didn't develop skills necessary to deal with the edge of the envelope BEFORE entering the 121 world, he/she WILL NOT develop those skills in the airline training environment. If the industry and the FAA insist on allowing 250 hour pilots in transport category aircraft, they must also insist that these pilots demonstrate the ability to recognize and recover from operations near or at the edge of the envelope.
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I added the red this time around. Until this happens, they can mandate 15 THOUSAND hours and we will still find airline pilots who can NOT operate when they get near the edge of the envelope.
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Old 07-22-2010 | 11:08 AM
  #102  
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Originally Posted by skybolt
I made this post about 14 months ago and I'm too lazy to think about the subject all over again, so here's the cut and paste.



I added the red this time around. Until this happens, they can mandate 15 THOUSAND hours and we will still find airline pilots who can NOT operate when they get near the edge of the envelope.

Couldn't agree more, pilot factories and pay for training airlines are rediuclous. Everything is fine when things go well yet when something is out of the ordinary those types will fold. You have to be able to resort back to your edge of the envelope experience because like you said in an airliner that's never done until it makes a life and death difference. I once, as an FO, had to take the controls away from a captain in a crj in a pretty sporty situation. It was an approach to minimums with a full pax load and heavy fuel load to a fairly short runway (6000 ft) in a crj. The ca handled the approach but when she went to flair she held the aircraft off burning up nearly half the runway behind us, she refused to go around. If I hadn't taken the controls and forced us to go around she would have without a doubt continued the landing with about 1000 feet remaining and ran a full jet off the end of the runway, she was too shaken to even fly the plane around to shoot the next approach. It amazed me that there were people like this flying in the left seat of commercial jets carrying passengers but they're out there. I'm not sure whatever happened to her but I've got to assume she still there.

She was a product of a pilot factory and was hired with very minimal time.

The only way to make it safe again is to keep people like this out of the flight deck of airliners until they know what they're doing.
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Old 07-22-2010 | 11:22 AM
  #103  
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Default A good thing

This will rule will do one important thing as far as improving the career. It will weed out those individuals with a strong sense of entitlement and little desire, drive and commitment to do what it takes to be a professional pilot. Those with a passion for aviation will not need much motivation to do what it takes and wont spend their time complaining, they will be out there getting it done no matter what it takes. Jobs were just to easy to come by as of late. It drove down quality of life, pay and benefits and has taken a huge toll on the profession. This is one step to repair that, this rule may seem an arbitrary number that really does not relate to the real world, it is what it is. But most important, airline jobs will be there for people that are committed and thus have a greater value and appreciation for what it takes to get there and will do what it takes to preserve and protect the job they have earned.
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Old 07-22-2010 | 11:41 AM
  #104  
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Sorry, please don't flame me....I tried to look this up; but when does the final vote on this come down? I am a rather excited for this and I will probably watch the news like I'm watching the Superbowl that day.

If airline management doesn't like it...it's probably good! Ha ha!
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Old 07-22-2010 | 01:25 PM
  #105  
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Originally Posted by block30
Sorry, please don't flame me....I tried to look this up; but when does the final vote on this come down? I am a rather excited for this and I will probably watch the news like I'm watching the Superbowl that day.

If airline management doesn't like it...it's probably good! Ha ha!

There was a push to vote on it today, but I don't think it happened. Two "stickys" are west coast slots out of DCA and something about UPS/Fedex. From what I read they will seperate those two from the main bill, Rockefeller will hand it to Reid for a vote before the recess and Obama will sign it into law in the upcoming days/weeks.

It'll be intereting to see who votes for and against it. I know if my elected official votes against it they will not get my support in November.
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Old 07-22-2010 | 01:50 PM
  #106  
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Does anyone know if they got rid of that provision that exempted graduates of Riddle and other "1-800-jetjobs" academies from the 1500 hour rule?
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Old 07-22-2010 | 02:03 PM
  #107  
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Originally Posted by Sliceback
How about X hours before upgrade? X = 3000 hrs TT?

How about X hours, or months as FO in similar type a/c prior to upgrade? X being 500-1000 hrs/12 months?

There are airlines that do that.
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Old 07-22-2010 | 03:43 PM
  #108  
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Originally Posted by ysslah
Dashtrash,
I wasn't trying to pick on you. But I just don't see adequate job options to get aforementioned experiences anymore. Time building jobs besides flight instructing is decreasing because there are less checks to be flown around, etc. I would think it would be more beneficial for safety if the airline training curriculum included more diverse and realistic scenarios a pilot may encounter on the line (ie: doing max forward until practical)
There aren't. There never will be. You might as well give up now.
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Old 07-22-2010 | 04:24 PM
  #109  
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Originally Posted by texaspilot76
Does anyone know if they got rid of that provision that exempted graduates of Riddle and other "1-800-jetjobs" academies from the 1500 hour rule?
I think a reduction is allowed if you went to an AABI school. Not sure by how much you can reduce though. Here is the current list:

http://www.aabi.aero/programs.html
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Old 07-22-2010 | 05:14 PM
  #110  
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Originally Posted by j1b3h0
Okay, I'll keep flogging the horse: On one hand we have a large number of big airplane pilots leading the charge for higher barriers to entry. And on the other, less experienced pilots saying "Hey, I did it and turned out OK, so what's the problem?" And, of course, we have the starving CFIs, who, while struggling to pay off their college loans, and get enough time to get hired, cry "Not fair!" to raising the bar.

One question: Doesn't it strike you as weird that the FARs require a great deal MORE experience to fly bank boxes, single-pilot in a light twin than they do to occupy a seat of a freaking AIRLINER? To me, if you can't do the former, you're too inexperienced to do the later!

If you'll pardon my outrageous opinion, the substantive prerequisites for becoming an airline crew member should be previous flying jobs that require daily DECISION making, while working in an airplane: How much payload. How much fuel. Can I go in this weather, with this MEL, and so on. You get to work, at 9PM in Pourin#ss rain, and there's 2000lbs of wet mailbags on the ramp, and the boss says "throw it on your Chieftain and get outa here". After a thousand hours of THAT, then you're ready for an airliner.

Arguably, it takes 1000 hours for an airline crew member to be worth a darn in each seat...there's that much more to learn AFTER you get there. I posit that if one lacks the lessons learned from the prerequisite courses, he won't learn them in an airline cockpit. The boating community calls this type of person a "hazard to navigation".
Beat me too it, although I kept forgetting to post it. 135 mins for hauling trash are 1200TT? Why would it only be 250 for hauling 90 paying passengers?
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