Spirit TA ratified
07-23-2010, 07:45 PM
#31
Line Holder
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Position: A 320 CA, retired
Posts: 89
Originally Posted by Palmtree Pilot
Listen anonymous "lostplanetairman," I'm not on here to insult you; If I was, you would know it. Your first statement, that I commented on, was basically an excuse in defense of someone noting that your new pay scale #s were low. I'm playing devil's advocate to "LEARN" why you have that attitude about why your #s at DOS are low. I understand the "total compensation" plan as it relates to work rules; I work for World Airways and you can't tell how good life is there if you look at our pay #s. What I can say though, is that if SWA pilots would have had that attitude about industry average, they wouldn't have been at the TOP of your comparison scales.
By the way my "anonymous world" resides in N. Scottsdale, AZ. I'm a 35 y.o. white, male pilot for World Airways. I'm 6' tall and 190 lbs. I have brown hair and hazel eyes. If you want to, you can PM me your # and I'll call you and give you my name so you can know who your talking to.
OK so you think we should only focus on pay?
The number one response on the Wilson poll was to keep QOL.
So you want us to go beyond industry parity and retain QOL?
PtP
By the way my "anonymous world" resides in N. Scottsdale, AZ. I'm a 35 y.o. white, male pilot for World Airways. I'm 6' tall and 190 lbs. I have brown hair and hazel eyes. If you want to, you can PM me your # and I'll call you and give you my name so you can know who your talking to.
OK so you think we should only focus on pay?
The number one response on the Wilson poll was to keep QOL.
So you want us to go beyond industry parity and retain QOL?
PtP
I'd be very happy to talk with you. You are ill informed and I'd be very happy to discuss this with you in person..
07-23-2010, 11:34 PM
#32
On Reserve
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Posts: 13
Originally Posted by Palmtree Pilot
Listen anonymous "lostplanetairman," I'm not on here to insult you; If I was, you would know it. Your first statement, that I commented on, was basically an excuse in defense of someone noting that your new pay scale #s were low. I'm playing devil's advocate to "LEARN" why you have that attitude about why your #s at DOS are low. I understand the "total compensation" plan as it relates to work rules; I work for World Airways and you can't tell how good life is there if you look at our pay #s. What I can say though, is that if SWA pilots would have had that attitude about industry average, they wouldn't have been at the TOP of your comparison scales.
By the way my "anonymous world" resides in N. Scottsdale, AZ. I'm a 35 y.o. white, male pilot for World Airways. I'm 6' tall and 190 lbs. I have brown hair and hazel eyes. If you want to, you can PM me your # and I'll call you and give you my name so you can know who your talking to.
PtP
By the way my "anonymous world" resides in N. Scottsdale, AZ. I'm a 35 y.o. white, male pilot for World Airways. I'm 6' tall and 190 lbs. I have brown hair and hazel eyes. If you want to, you can PM me your # and I'll call you and give you my name so you can know who your talking to.
PtP
According to Airline Pilot Central, World Airways 15 yr payscale is
$160/Hour with a 65 hour guarantee
Spirit's is $185/hour with a 72 hour guarantee
That's a whole lot better, by anybody's math!
07-23-2010, 11:47 PM
#33
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,001
Just the facts
Originally Posted by lostplanetairman
Well since anyone who is in negotiations knows that they look at an industry average, we are looking to all you DAL, UAL, AA, etc folks to raise the bar for us next time. They averaged all the rates and we got parity with the average (and SWA was in the mix).
Using APC's posted current hourly payrates, I calculated the average hourly rate years 1-15 for both FO and CA using: Alaska, American (average of 737 and MD-80), Continental (SN), Delta (A320), Hawaiian (717), United (A320), US Airways East (A320), US Airways West (A320), AirTran, Allegiant, Frontier, JetBlue (A320), Southwest, Sun Country, USA 3000, Virgin, and Spirit's now DOS rates. I then compared this average rate to both Spirit's new DOS rates and Spirit's new rates @ DOS +4.
While there are obviously 100's of #'s when you get every FO and CA pay rate from year 1-15 for every carrier here (so I won't post them here), the result:
- Spirit's average new DOS payscale for CA's lags industry average CA pay by 11.6%.
- Spirit's average new DOS payscale for FO's lags industry average FO pay by 20.4%.
- Spirit's average new DOS+4 payscale for CA's leads industry average CA pay by 7.0%.
- Spirit's average new DOS+4 payscale for FO's lags industry average FO pay by 2.6%.
When none of your current payrates are industry average, and, even 4 years from now, roughly 1/2 your pilots are still below industry average (from 4 years ago) . . .
Spirit did not get parity with the industry average.
I included Southwest (
) as well as the 9 carriers that took concessions in the last decade (either bankruptcy, threat of bankruptcy [AA], or arbitration loss [AK]).For future reference, this is the current industry average pay for A-320 type aircraft year 1-15 (save yourself the hour it takes to plug all of it into Excel):
CA FO
102.63 35.00
126.86 76.00
129.88 91.00
132.48 93.50
135.50 96.00
137.74 98.50
139.63 100.50
142.48 103.00
144.63 106.50
146.98 108.50
148.85 110.50
150.99 111.50
151.33 111.50
151.67 111.50
151.95 111.50
If you want me to e-mail the excel spreadsheet with all the #'s, just PM me. The #'s don't lie.
Last edited by Sniper; 07-23-2010 at 11:58 PM. Reason: better description of the math I did to arrive @ the average rate
07-24-2010, 04:40 AM
#35
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Posts: 148
Excellent work Sniper! Thank you for taking the time to run the numbers.
The WORST part about all this is that Spirit puts 145 seats in the A319s, 178 seats in the A320s, and 218 seats in the A321s!!! That alone should warrant better pay rates. Who else puts that many seats in their jets?
But man...think of all the "override" pay we're gonna continue to rack up for flying the A321s!
The WORST part about all this is that Spirit puts 145 seats in the A319s, 178 seats in the A320s, and 218 seats in the A321s!!! That alone should warrant better pay rates. Who else puts that many seats in their jets?
But man...think of all the "override" pay we're gonna continue to rack up for flying the A321s!
07-24-2010, 04:59 AM
#36
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: 737 CAPT
Posts: 1,887
Originally Posted by Sniper
I thought this statement was suspicious. So, I ran the #'s.
Using APC's posted current hourly payrates, I calculated the average hourly rate years 1-15 for both FO and CA using: Alaska, American (average of 737 and MD-80), Continental (SN), Delta (A320), Hawaiian (717), United (A320), US Airways East (A320), US Airways West (A320), AirTran, Allegiant, Frontier, JetBlue (A320), Southwest, Sun Country, USA 3000, Virgin, and Spirit's now DOS rates. I then compared this average rate to both Spirit's new DOS rates and Spirit's new rates @ DOS +4.
While there are obviously 100's of #'s when you get every FO and CA pay rate from year 1-15 for every carrier here (so I won't post them here), the result:
Spirit did not get parity with the industry average.
I included Southwest () as well as the 9 carriers that took concessions in the last decade (either bankruptcy, threat of bankruptcy [AA], or arbitration loss [AK]).
For future reference, this is the current industry average pay for A-320 type aircraft year 1-15 (save yourself the hour it takes to plug all of it into Excel):
CA FO
102.63 35.00
126.86 76.00
129.88 91.00
132.48 93.50
135.50 96.00
137.74 98.50
139.63 100.50
142.48 103.00
144.63 106.50
146.98 108.50
148.85 110.50
150.99 111.50
151.33 111.50
151.67 111.50
151.95 111.50
If you want me to e-mail the excel spreadsheet with all the #'s, just PM me. The #'s don't lie.
Using APC's posted current hourly payrates, I calculated the average hourly rate years 1-15 for both FO and CA using: Alaska, American (average of 737 and MD-80), Continental (SN), Delta (A320), Hawaiian (717), United (A320), US Airways East (A320), US Airways West (A320), AirTran, Allegiant, Frontier, JetBlue (A320), Southwest, Sun Country, USA 3000, Virgin, and Spirit's now DOS rates. I then compared this average rate to both Spirit's new DOS rates and Spirit's new rates @ DOS +4.
While there are obviously 100's of #'s when you get every FO and CA pay rate from year 1-15 for every carrier here (so I won't post them here), the result:
- Spirit's average new DOS payscale for CA's lags industry average CA pay by 11.6%.
- Spirit's average new DOS payscale for FO's lags industry average FO pay by 20.4%.
- Spirit's average new DOS+4 payscale for CA's leads industry average CA pay by 7.0%.
- Spirit's average new DOS+4 payscale for FO's lags industry average FO pay by 2.6%.
Spirit did not get parity with the industry average.
I included Southwest (
) as well as the 9 carriers that took concessions in the last decade (either bankruptcy, threat of bankruptcy [AA], or arbitration loss [AK]).For future reference, this is the current industry average pay for A-320 type aircraft year 1-15 (save yourself the hour it takes to plug all of it into Excel):
CA FO
102.63 35.00
126.86 76.00
129.88 91.00
132.48 93.50
135.50 96.00
137.74 98.50
139.63 100.50
142.48 103.00
144.63 106.50
146.98 108.50
148.85 110.50
150.99 111.50
151.33 111.50
151.67 111.50
151.95 111.50
If you want me to e-mail the excel spreadsheet with all the #'s, just PM me. The #'s don't lie.
CA FO
31.18 31.18
149.98 62.33
151.34 73.38
152.69 83.11
154.04 91.47
155.40 99.97
156.76 102.40
158.12 104.84
159.46 106.91
160.83 109.41
162.18 110.74
163.53 111.66
These rates are about to go up around Sept. 1st as we take delivery in August of 9 LNB 737s which have been sitting at Boeing while the seat issue was resolved.
07-24-2010, 06:00 AM
#37
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: A320 CA
Posts: 163
Well I don't know about anyone else but here at Spirit I like my aircraft, my fellow pilots, my routes, my schedules, I'm paying my bills with some left over, enjoying my hobbies, and living in paradise. What else is there?
07-24-2010, 06:23 AM
#38
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: A320 Cap
Posts: 2,282
Congrats on closing the chapter on this book, guys and gals. You put up a great fight, and I'm glad to see that you got some good improvements to your contract. Also glad to see that the unity you all displayed payed the dividends that it did.... a good lesson to pilots everywhere.
Trying to look forward to our OWN negotiations, I've perused your contract details with interest. The one area where I'm most concerned is the "signing bonus". It appears that more and more, retro pay has now slipped by the wayside as an important issue. Companies are buying us off with a fairly insignificant sum and being let off the hook on the retro side. With retro gone, so is the incentive to negotiate swiftly. Dragging the process out three, four, five years just keeps looking better and better if they are going to only have to drop $3,000 per captain rather than the $30,000+ in retro pay they would owe. Hmmm.... I think I'll go call my reps.
Trying to look forward to our OWN negotiations, I've perused your contract details with interest. The one area where I'm most concerned is the "signing bonus". It appears that more and more, retro pay has now slipped by the wayside as an important issue. Companies are buying us off with a fairly insignificant sum and being let off the hook on the retro side. With retro gone, so is the incentive to negotiate swiftly. Dragging the process out three, four, five years just keeps looking better and better if they are going to only have to drop $3,000 per captain rather than the $30,000+ in retro pay they would owe. Hmmm.... I think I'll go call my reps.
07-24-2010, 07:29 AM
#40
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Posts: 532
Originally Posted by GoldenGoose
According to Airline Pilot Central, World Airways 15 yr payscale is
$160/Hour with a 65 hour guarantee
Spirit's is $185/hour with a 72 hour guarantee
That's a whole lot better, by anybody's math!
$160/Hour with a 65 hour guarantee
Spirit's is $185/hour with a 72 hour guarantee
That's a whole lot better, by anybody's math!
Spirit 10 year Captain-----$137/hour
World 10 year Captain----$158/hour
so that's 21 bucks more per hour than Spirit. and they got teamsters, maybe we should switch to them. wow, World even gets 2.40 hour per diem...that's 40 cents better than sprite....
Your math is fuzzy......
God Bless Goose...
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