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Old 10-26-2010 | 05:54 AM
  #1631  
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Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
I don't know...DPA isn't born yet.



I'm not trying to be clever, I just don't know the answer to that question.



Online. DPA member pilots log on with member number and secure ID, then give their opinions on the survey question. Give a date when survey ends. Data available for all members to view 1 second after survey/poll expiration time.

Carl
I am not wanting to get involved in this particular firefight, and far be it for me to give ANY impression that I can support one side or the other at this juncture, I do think that there is need for some of these polls to not be publicly available. For example it would be bad if the company were to find out what an acceptable pay increase would be prior to negotiations. And the fact is that there is no way for that to be kept secret. Somebody would talk. That's why the idea that a Navy missile shot down TWA 800 is so ludicrous. But there are probably some polls out there that would be informative to the membership..

I support DALPA.. NOT ALPA (national)
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Old 10-26-2010 | 05:56 AM
  #1632  
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Originally Posted by acl65pilot

Ever think that a contract opener is fairly close to where the middle of this group lies?
Yes.... yes I do.
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Old 10-26-2010 | 06:12 AM
  #1633  
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Default The Negotiations Game

Originally Posted by acl65pilot
Ever think that a contract opener is fairly close to where the middle of this group lies?
Historically, both sides would open with an absurd "wish list", haggle their way to somewhere in the middle, sign, and claim a victory. Somebody would always ask "Why don't we save time and open closer to the midpoint, since that's where we always end up?" The answer was "Because that would change the location of the 'middle'."
Even when all the negotiators know approximately where the result will be, they have to play the game, lest their constituents grumble that they gave in too easily.
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Old 10-26-2010 | 06:34 AM
  #1634  
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Originally Posted by tomgoodman
Historically, both sides would open with an absurd "wish list", haggle their way to somewhere in the middle, sign, and claim a victory. Somebody would always ask "Why don't we save time and open closer to the midpoint, since that's where we always end up?" The answer was "Because that would change the location of the 'middle'."
Even when all the negotiators know approximately where the result will be, they have to play the game, lest their constituents grumble that they gave in too easily.
Just curious, were all the circa C2K contracts (AMR, DAL, UAL) negotiated this way, i.e. historically? Maybe those successes need to be considered the "new normal?" It seems more and more that a strike threat is no longer in the quiver as it was in the late 2000s.
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Old 10-26-2010 | 06:44 AM
  #1635  
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Originally Posted by Columbia
Just curious, were all the circa C2K contracts (AMR, DAL, UAL) negotiated this way, i.e. historically? Maybe those successes need to be considered the "new normal?" It seems more and more that a strike threat is no longer in the quiver as it was in the late 2000s.
This seems true. Also, their ability to threaten our pension is no longer in their quiver. Hopefully that evens the score.
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Old 10-26-2010 | 06:50 AM
  #1636  
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Originally Posted by acl65pilot
Ever think that a contract opener is fairly close to where the middle of this group lies?
I hope you are joking about opening with what we would settle with.
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Old 10-26-2010 | 07:04 AM
  #1637  
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From: DAL 330
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Originally Posted by tsquare

And the fact is that there is no way for that to be kept secret. Somebody would talk. That's why the idea that a Navy missile shot down TWA 800 is so ludicrous.

I support DALPA.. NOT ALPA (national)

T,

I can't help but laugh when I hear those TWA rumors. Like any Navy ship/sub with a couple of hundred teenage to twenty something sailors could do anything like that and keep a lid on it for more than two seconds.

Oh wait, maybe it was the Navy CG manned by the Men in Black. You know, the one manned exclusively with agents from the CIA, NIA, etc.

Scoop
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Old 10-26-2010 | 07:19 AM
  #1638  
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Originally Posted by Scoop
T,

I can't help but laugh when I hear those TWA rumors. Like any Navy ship/sub with a couple of hundred teenage to twenty something sailors could do anything like that and keep a lid on it for more than two seconds.

Oh wait, maybe it was the Navy CG manned by the Men in Black. You know, the one manned exclusively with agents from the CIA, NIA, etc.

Scoop
I flew with a wacko captain several years ago that totally believed the Navy/TWA story... and every other conspiracy theory out there. He couldn't figure out why his wife left him though.
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Old 10-26-2010 | 07:40 AM
  #1639  
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From: 767er Captain
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Originally Posted by Scoop
T,

I can't help but laugh when I hear those TWA rumors. Like any Navy ship/sub with a couple of hundred teenage to twenty something sailors could do anything like that and keep a lid on it for more than two seconds.

Oh wait, maybe it was the Navy CG manned by the Men in Black. You know, the one manned exclusively with agents from the CIA, NIA, etc.

Scoop
Yeah.. now had there been a mysterious sub sinking within a few days.....
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Old 10-26-2010 | 08:32 AM
  #1640  
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Default Make hay while the sun shines

Originally Posted by Columbia
Just curious, were all the circa C2K contracts (AMR, DAL, UAL) negotiated this way, i.e. historically? Maybe those successes need to be considered the "new normal?" It seems more and more that a strike threat is no longer in the quiver as it was in the late 2000s.
Don't know about other airlines, but that was the case at DAL. The WSJ published an article (perhaps grudgingly) complimenting DALPA on C2K. When Grinstein took over, some time after 9/11, he made a speech saying (approximately): "It used to be that you ask for $10, I offer $6, you come down to $9, I raise to $7, and so on. But the time for that kind of negotiating has passed. We need XXX, period."

That "take it or leave it" posture doesn't work well, even during a crisis, and it certainly shouldn't work now. As far as the strike threat, If the pilots don't think they have it during profitable times, then they don't have it at all.
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