Interesting.....

 

Splash's post is misleading. The average SWA Captain makes over $230K/year and the average SWA F/O makes over $140K/year. I think that's pretty close to what our narrowbody domestic pilots were making with C2K.

How far are we from that today? As a DC-9 Captain, I made LESS last year than the average SWA First Officer.

 

You were a Captain here at that age correct?

 

You just made the cardinal sin and only looked at pay rates....forgetting about work rules. With their work rules, they make right at what guys were making under C2K.

 

I'm really not going to allow you apologists to play the normal deny, deflect and ignore game. I'll be glad to talk about how an in-house union will do things differently, but first you need to actually answer the points I posted previously, and am reposting below for you:

Answer these items Spash.

Carl

 

Time for a reality check Splash. First,we are a LONG way from C2K rates and there is no plan whatsoever from DALPA to get us there. The only literature we've received thus far is numerous dissertations on how to read financials, cash flows and industry specific data. In other words...how to understand negotiations through the eyes of management. That is of course my opinion, but there's no other reason for DALPA to waste our time with this unless that's their reasoning.

Second, I do not hold SWAPA up as worthy negotiators. I only give them credit for holding up their end of a relationship that is the most worthy in the industry. A relationship based on trust, mutual respect, and mutual understanding of what critical skills each side brings to the airline to make it a success. I would love to have that relationship at Delta. But we do not have it. Many here think that we'll have it if we just run from every battle with management, but that is just denial of the obvious. And this denial has brought us to the point of having a contract that doesn't lead the industry in even one area. Not one.

Rates alone don't mean very much to me, and they shouldn't to anyone. What SHOULD matter to everyone is your take home pay and how many days you are away from your family to achieve that take home pay. Southwest pilots' take home pay is something we should all envy. Even compared to our C2K 737 rates, their take home pay and the number of days away from home was very close to us back then.

Carl

 

Sorry, you already made my point for me. Guess I should have read ahead.

Carl

 

Yep, their work rules are great. Some guys on the DALPA forum were talking about that - the SWA pilots get paid for a lot of working, but don't work a lot. I'd be happy with our pay rates if we could have their work rules.

 

And now for something almost completely different

A compensation tidbit, with PG's new call sign redacted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pineapple Guy
Fair enough. First I'll provide my...

OPINION: Our peer group should be those airlines who were similarly situated and went through bankruptcy about the same time we did. Meaning, UAL, USAir, NWA, and DAL.

But I'm sure you'd scoff at that. I already know....

YOUR OPINION: LUV and UPS (can't count FDX because they are an ALPA carrier and all ALPA carriers are bad, bad, bad...)

So, let's turn to an independent 3rd party; one with no agenda and no axe to grind. Try this: Airline Pilot Central






OK ***** ****, lets do just that. We will:

1. Use an airline from your bankruptcy peer group. A little defeatest, but that is what I expect from folks that suffer from low self esteem.

2. We will use your independent 3rd party.

I submit to all reading this thread, Hawaiian Airlines.

They went through BK the same year Delta and Northwest did. They also fly the same equipment we do as well. In fact, they fly 767's that were recently on Delta's certificate. They also fly the 717 that holds 123 people in mixed seating in a leisure market with LCC competition.

Imagine that!!

To follow up, they have expanded recently and compete directly with Delta in the Hawaiian-Japan/Korea market.

Now. Is that a good enough comparison so far?

Here is where the similarities stop.

Lets begin peeling the layers of the 717 onion back first. We are not going to go with straight numbers from APC since they don't have 737's to compare directly with, we will put more thought into them than that:

717 holds 123 people. Captain at 12 years is paid $162.00

That equals $1.317 dollars per hour/per seat.

Delta's 737 hold 160 people. So for equivelent pay we have 160 seats * 1.317 multiplier = $210.72 per hour.

In order for a Delta 737 Captain to be paid at the same level of compensation that a Hawaiian 717 captain is, they would have to earn $210 an hour.

Now, we can compare the 767 straight across if you like.

Hawaiian: $191.00 per hour

Delta: $182.00 per hour

Since this is so enlightening.....lets keep going shall we?

Delta per diem domestic $2.00
Hawaiian domestic $2.50

Delta International p/d $2.50
Hawaiian OCONUS pay! Wow, what a great idea!

This is fun, let's explore.....retirement.

Delta 11% + 2% 401k company match.
Hawaiian 19.4% 401k plus 2.40 a/b (new hires get 15%)

And, here is the gonad cracker.

Take the above rates and multiplier and apply it to the Achilles heel in the DAL PWA.....

The monthly guarantee.

Delta. Line holders 65 hrs. Reserve 70 hrs.
Hawaiian Line holders 75hrs. Reserve 75 hrs.

Results in much larger W2's and retirement, and they are a peer. Even an ALPA peer.

 

Why would you be happy making LESS than a SWA pilot?