Delta Pilots Association
#5181
As soon as Southwest pilots negotiate a higher 737 rate than the Delta C2K rate, we should hold them up as worthy negotiators. They are still about $50 per our below the C2K rates.
Can you tell us why they have not been able to negotiate a rate that comes close to the C2K rate, negotiated a decade ago?
Can you tell us why they have not been able to negotiate a rate that comes close to the C2K rate, negotiated a decade ago?
#5182
Splash's post is misleading. The average SWA Captain makes over $230K/year and the average SWA F/O makes over $140K/year. I think that's pretty close to what our narrowbody domestic pilots were making with C2K.
How far are we from that today? As a DC-9 Captain, I made LESS last year than the average SWA First Officer.
How far are we from that today? As a DC-9 Captain, I made LESS last year than the average SWA First Officer.
#5184
As soon as Southwest pilots negotiate a higher 737 rate than the Delta C2K rate, we should hold them up as worthy negotiators. They are still about $50 per our below the C2K rates.
Can you tell us why they have not been able to negotiate a rate that comes close to the C2K rate, negotiated a decade ago?
Can you tell us why they have not been able to negotiate a rate that comes close to the C2K rate, negotiated a decade ago?
You just made the cardinal sin and only looked at pay rates....forgetting about work rules. With their work rules, they make right at what guys were making under C2K.
#5185
These are telling. Not about ALPA...about you. Maybe it's time for you to explain exactly how the DPA will be able to overcome the government, management, the courts, the economy, and the weaknesses of our non-affiliated brothers...sometimes all at the same time. There's something missing in your rhetoric that you should fill in.
Describe the mechanism that empowers us to achieve the exact results YOU expect. Then describe how the DPA provides it. You're a peach at pounding ALPA. You're a chump at giving us the specific roadmap to success.
Describe the mechanism that empowers us to achieve the exact results YOU expect. Then describe how the DPA provides it. You're a peach at pounding ALPA. You're a chump at giving us the specific roadmap to success.
As the alfaromeo's and the Spash's know all too well, they can't possibly defend an ALPA that:
1. Does not defend the scope clauses of major airlines
2. Wants us to see our upcoming Section 6 through the eyes of management
3. Fails to defend the 1,500 hour rule
4. Fails to defend FT/DT rules
5. Tried to bust their own in-house union
Since they can't defend the above, they have no other alternative but to attack the guy who started the DPA movement. And attack anyone who supports the effort. SSDD.
Carl
1. Does not defend the scope clauses of major airlines
2. Wants us to see our upcoming Section 6 through the eyes of management
3. Fails to defend the 1,500 hour rule
4. Fails to defend FT/DT rules
5. Tried to bust their own in-house union
Since they can't defend the above, they have no other alternative but to attack the guy who started the DPA movement. And attack anyone who supports the effort. SSDD.
Carl
Carl
#5186
Second, I do not hold SWAPA up as worthy negotiators. I only give them credit for holding up their end of a relationship that is the most worthy in the industry. A relationship based on trust, mutual respect, and mutual understanding of what critical skills each side brings to the airline to make it a success. I would love to have that relationship at Delta. But we do not have it. Many here think that we'll have it if we just run from every battle with management, but that is just denial of the obvious. And this denial has brought us to the point of having a contract that doesn't lead the industry in even one area. Not one.
Carl
#5187
#5188
Yep, their work rules are great. Some guys on the DALPA forum were talking about that - the SWA pilots get paid for a lot of working, but don't work a lot. I'd be happy with our pay rates if we could have their work rules.
#5189
And now for something almost completely different
A compensation tidbit, with PG's new call sign redacted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pineapple Guy
Fair enough. First I'll provide my...
OPINION: Our peer group should be those airlines who were similarly situated and went through bankruptcy about the same time we did. Meaning, UAL, USAir, NWA, and DAL.
But I'm sure you'd scoff at that. I already know....
YOUR OPINION: LUV and UPS (can't count FDX because they are an ALPA carrier and all ALPA carriers are bad, bad, bad...)
So, let's turn to an independent 3rd party; one with no agenda and no axe to grind. Try this: Airline Pilot Central
OK ***** ****, lets do just that. We will:
1. Use an airline from your bankruptcy peer group. A little defeatest, but that is what I expect from folks that suffer from low self esteem.
2. We will use your independent 3rd party.
I submit to all reading this thread, Hawaiian Airlines.
They went through BK the same year Delta and Northwest did. They also fly the same equipment we do as well. In fact, they fly 767's that were recently on Delta's certificate. They also fly the 717 that holds 123 people in mixed seating in a leisure market with LCC competition.
Imagine that!!
To follow up, they have expanded recently and compete directly with Delta in the Hawaiian-Japan/Korea market.
Now. Is that a good enough comparison so far?
Here is where the similarities stop.
Lets begin peeling the layers of the 717 onion back first. We are not going to go with straight numbers from APC since they don't have 737's to compare directly with, we will put more thought into them than that:
717 holds 123 people. Captain at 12 years is paid $162.00
That equals $1.317 dollars per hour/per seat.
Delta's 737 hold 160 people. So for equivelent pay we have 160 seats * 1.317 multiplier = $210.72 per hour.
In order for a Delta 737 Captain to be paid at the same level of compensation that a Hawaiian 717 captain is, they would have to earn $210 an hour.
Now, we can compare the 767 straight across if you like.
Hawaiian: $191.00 per hour
Delta: $182.00 per hour
Since this is so enlightening.....lets keep going shall we?
Delta per diem domestic $2.00
Hawaiian domestic $2.50
Delta International p/d $2.50
Hawaiian OCONUS pay! Wow, what a great idea!
This is fun, let's explore.....retirement.
Delta 11% + 2% 401k company match.
Hawaiian 19.4% 401k plus 2.40 a/b (new hires get 15%)
And, here is the gonad cracker.
Take the above rates and multiplier and apply it to the Achilles heel in the DAL PWA.....
The monthly guarantee.
Delta. Line holders 65 hrs. Reserve 70 hrs.
Hawaiian Line holders 75hrs. Reserve 75 hrs.
Results in much larger W2's and retirement, and they are a peer. Even an ALPA peer.
A compensation tidbit, with PG's new call sign redacted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pineapple Guy
Fair enough. First I'll provide my...
OPINION: Our peer group should be those airlines who were similarly situated and went through bankruptcy about the same time we did. Meaning, UAL, USAir, NWA, and DAL.
But I'm sure you'd scoff at that. I already know....
YOUR OPINION: LUV and UPS (can't count FDX because they are an ALPA carrier and all ALPA carriers are bad, bad, bad...)
So, let's turn to an independent 3rd party; one with no agenda and no axe to grind. Try this: Airline Pilot Central
OK ***** ****, lets do just that. We will:
1. Use an airline from your bankruptcy peer group. A little defeatest, but that is what I expect from folks that suffer from low self esteem.
2. We will use your independent 3rd party.
I submit to all reading this thread, Hawaiian Airlines.
They went through BK the same year Delta and Northwest did. They also fly the same equipment we do as well. In fact, they fly 767's that were recently on Delta's certificate. They also fly the 717 that holds 123 people in mixed seating in a leisure market with LCC competition.
Imagine that!!
To follow up, they have expanded recently and compete directly with Delta in the Hawaiian-Japan/Korea market.
Now. Is that a good enough comparison so far?
Here is where the similarities stop.
Lets begin peeling the layers of the 717 onion back first. We are not going to go with straight numbers from APC since they don't have 737's to compare directly with, we will put more thought into them than that:
717 holds 123 people. Captain at 12 years is paid $162.00
That equals $1.317 dollars per hour/per seat.
Delta's 737 hold 160 people. So for equivelent pay we have 160 seats * 1.317 multiplier = $210.72 per hour.
In order for a Delta 737 Captain to be paid at the same level of compensation that a Hawaiian 717 captain is, they would have to earn $210 an hour.
Now, we can compare the 767 straight across if you like.
Hawaiian: $191.00 per hour
Delta: $182.00 per hour
Since this is so enlightening.....lets keep going shall we?
Delta per diem domestic $2.00
Hawaiian domestic $2.50
Delta International p/d $2.50
Hawaiian OCONUS pay! Wow, what a great idea!
This is fun, let's explore.....retirement.
Delta 11% + 2% 401k company match.
Hawaiian 19.4% 401k plus 2.40 a/b (new hires get 15%)
And, here is the gonad cracker.
Take the above rates and multiplier and apply it to the Achilles heel in the DAL PWA.....
The monthly guarantee.
Delta. Line holders 65 hrs. Reserve 70 hrs.
Hawaiian Line holders 75hrs. Reserve 75 hrs.
Results in much larger W2's and retirement, and they are a peer. Even an ALPA peer.
#5190
Why would you be happy making LESS than a SWA pilot?
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