I still like carrying two passports and that crazy looking Russian VISA in one of them, never got to go, but its fun to look at. Now if I could only get a black passport, that'd be awesome. And a black amex, that'd be awesomer.

I can appreciate your need to distort and change the subject. Allow me to straighten out your contortions:

Pointing out the historical fact about SWA is not done to make one feel better about themselves or their current employment. Historical fact simply speaks for itself. Historical fact is:

1. SWA was born through governmental protection from competition by being given Love Field without competition. The downtown airport in one of America's largest cities.

2. SWA management found a continuous stream of pilots who were willing to pay for their own training and work for pay that was far below industry standards for decades. Only very recently has SWA pay been at the top of the industry due to the downward movement of everyone else.

3. SWA management used the competitive advantages of points 1 and 2 above to run an extremely efficient airline based on incredible customer focus.

4. SWA management plays the game with regulators brilliantly to achieve greater efficiencies (ATC pizza parties, and the like).

5. SWA management enjoys tremendous lobbying success with their ability to extract assets from other airlines when those other airlines decide to merge or engage in other corporate transactions.

These facts don't make SWA bad in my view, it just makes SWA noticed. I notice, DAL management notices, and other airline managements notice. They'll develop tactics to respond to SWA. They'll either work, or they won't.

Carl

FTB,

Some good words, good data, and FWIW a good attitude on your part I think. A quick summary I read of SWA-AAI show currently each carrier serves approx 37 cities the other does not. Once the acquisition is complete, we'll serve 100 cities total. And of course ATL will be a big city in the mix of things.

I too think a little healthy competition is a good thing. Constantly dragging up some old axe to grind is tiresome (which I thank you for not doing).

"Codeshare" can be a heretical thing to bring up at SWA, but as others have mentioned, a little codeshare to DAL's international flights out of ATL could be very good for both companies.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't SWA "paying for training" a misnomer? Don't SWA pilots have to pay for (if they don't already have one) a 737 type rating, and then SWA sends them to training, where they will take a check ride at the end of said training?

I don't think they go straight to IOE with their Higher Power 737 type in hand ... do they? Or am I missing something?

Is that the same thing that happens at some corporate and/or commuter operations? Or do some of those operations have folks pay for training and then they start operating on day 1 based upon the training they paid for?

I'm a retired AF guy, so I didn't go through the commuter route ....

Yep.

It's no different than AirTran saying you have to have 500 121 PIC. They don't really care how you get it, so long as you do. If you have to buy your type (if you had to buy your 500 121 PIC) or if you got it from a different carrier, no one really would care. Just get it before class.

I see "Typed and 135 current" for most job postings that I look at (or have forwarded to me). Same deal. If someone wanted to pay $65k for an (Insert type) type rating and 135 training, fine. If they already have that, that's fine too.

You aren't paying for training. You're getting a prerequisite for the job. Nothing more, nothing less.

-mini

Yes...and no. You have posed an honest question, and I'll do my best to answer. Just realize that this a controversial topic to some and subsequent posts will probably reflect this. At risk of over-simplifying things, some non-SWA types will ocassionally use a rebuttal such as "Oh yeah, well at least I didn't have to pay for my type-rating/training/job" etc.

Here is my attempt at summarizing this whole mind-set (no doubt this will have been stated more thoroughly elsewhere in this forum. Look for posts by Skyhigh).

1) The pilot profession, specifically commercial aviation has seen a downward trend in career expectations/earnings, sometimes called the "race to the bottom"

2) Aviation is a pursuit in large part fueled by passion. Unfortunately, many pilots are willing to accept meager wages just for the sheer joy of getting airborne. In fact, many new pilots are willing to "fly for free" towing banners/hauling skydivers, whatever just to build hours to help them work towards that proverbial BIG paycheck (that big paycheck that was talked about by their CFI at some flight school).

3) The blurring of the lines between mainline/regional flying (scope), the associated payscales, shiny jet syndrome, etc all in combination with bullet #2 above has furthered the lost earnings potential of the aviation career. In other words, pilots are helping to cheapen the pilot profession.

4) 9/11 and the economic downturn(s) didn't help either

5) Having been hit in the pocket books, some pilots (usually at legacy carriers) take part in a verbal backlash towards those they feel might be partaking in this cheapening of the profession. Targets include:
- anyone doing some of that "flying for free" stuff above
- many regional carriers (Republic seems to get a lot of attention here)
- LCC (SWA, Airtran, Spirit, Virgin America)
- and anyone that "paid for training"...but usually this barb is directed at SWA with specific reference to the 737-type requirement prior to being hired


Again, volumes can and have been written on APC and elsewhere on this topic. I will, however, offer up these points to ponder:

- The vast majority of all pilots have paid for training at some point or another. Whether it was to get their initial PPL, to get their ATP prior to applying to a legacy, to take the ATP/FE writtens, whatever...I'll bet some $$ changed hands in order to help land that airline job.

- Some accuse that "paying for a 737-type rating" prior to getting hired by an airline is somehow wrong. Is it because the type costs more than an ATP? Is it because they think the carrier should pay for the type, but the prospective employee should be willing to pay for everything else (ATP, Writtens, etc)? Heck, I dunno, but I wonder sometimes. What if I got my 737-type for free flying T-43's for the USAF and then got hired by SWA...would that be ok? What if I used my GI Bill and my type cost less than the typical ATP...would that be ok? Where does one draw the line? Is paying $500 for an interview suit too much?


OK, so that's it for my explanation. Can't wait to see the fireworks begin. Maybe a mod will move your post and this one to a different thread so the SWA-Airtran discussion can move along.


Me too...well, almost anyway. Got 20+ years in, doing the reserve gig now. Someday I'll hang up the bag. Check 6!

I'll speak with experience as best my brain can remember it from ExpressJet, i.e. Coex.

$10K for EMB120 or ATR training for new hires, no pay, no per diem, and no hotels paid for until the end of sim training... I think. I'm not sure if it was sim or OE. No insurance for 6 months.

The Beech 1900D came in at around $7,500K, which was a big enough incentive for most to go in that direction.

If you failed then I think you only owed a 3/4 portion or something. I came in right after that stopped in 2000 and was actually blessed to have paid for hotels and per diem but no pay. Some of the guys before we're absolutely ****ed we didn't have to pay for training anymore and we got hotels and per diem paid for.

We didn't have training contracts either, I believe many airlines that reluctantly dropped PFT instituted contracts.

PFT was looked down upon by a lot of people who were not regional pilots or who refused to partcipate and built time up in Part 135 cargo and applied to majors. To all of these people you were cheapening the profession, you were cheating, you simply were a *****.

But since you weren't qualified to interview until you had far more than ATP mins guys were ready to do something other than CFI and freight - and 6 month upgrades inticed guys to do it. And there was no shortage.

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As to corporate and Part 135, what you see is accurate in that many want you already typed. That should be your red flag about who is hiring and their mindset. Of course, when I hired by replacement for my last corporate job guess what the requirement was - a type. The boss was not going to pay for intiial training and because of it our candidate pool was less than 3 people and he got the worst possible hire we could've imagined and later fired him after he made a complete wreck of the operation. I heard he hired someone a year later with the help of the charter company we flew for and paid for an initial type, but guess what, they failed out, go figure.

If, however, you buy a type expect scorn and it would be viewed as a questionable precedent setting activity by most corporate pilots. Thats why its best to get a type whenever you can as a GA pilot, you may need it someday, actually you will need it someday. Most of the jobs you see online are dead end jobs. I know, I had one and it was a big gorgeous new jet with great pay... but it was dead end job and the reason why I can't watch the Devil Wears Prada without sticking my thumb in my mouth and crawling into a fetal position.

Type ratings don't cost $65K unless you were doing some sort of aircraft bounce training. Alteon 757-767 ratings run around $17-22K, 744 is cheaper at around $16-$17K. As we know you can get 737 type ratings around $7K-$10K. I did King Air training once and I want to say the check my boss paid was $7.5 or $9.5K. Business jets are in the $13K-$22K range. FSI loves to overcharge, I think Gulfstream IV initial is in the mid $30K range along with Falcon 900s. :rolleyes:

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Rumor is that several pilots hired at CAL did a PFT program with CAL. They bought their types at their training center and got hired. I've heard CAL pilots talk about it, I've mentioned it on the forums and its been denied and I got to be called a few colorful metaphors. I'm going to go with the pilots who saw it with their own eyes.

Since some folks here seem to want to dilute the 737 type requirement as not equating to paying for your training, let's move on to the other point I listed above. Specifically, the fact that SWA pilots accepted pay that was far below industry standard for decades - allowing the rest of the industry's pilots to fight the wage battles.

How shall we dilute this point?

Carl

How about with some facts?

We didn't "let" you fight our battles for us and we weren't "far below" "for decades". The biggest disparity was in the mid 90's when UA and DL got their windfall contracts and we took a 5 year pay freeze in exchange for stock options. Options that netted those at the top in excess of $500k. But you never mention that in your equation do you? Additionally, we simply weren't big enough or had enough pull to demand anything more. We were a struggling airline hoping to make it work, not unlike any number of LCC's operating today. Most of whom are currently working for well below industry average. Why not bust their chops? Probably because it's easier to blame us for any of your current problems rather than take accountability for them. When I got hired in 92', very few in the industry were paying any attention to us - and couldn't care less about our pay structure. Now you are.

On another note, I recently read that one of Captains took advantage of ground time in a south Florida city and hand delivered 5 slices of key lime pie to the crew of an adjacent AirTran aircraft - in a welcome aboard gesture.

Nice work amigo:)

A great example of why people pay for thier type to work at SWA...so they can work with people like this....