SWA vs FedEx
01-13-2011 | 09:57 AM
#152
Trust but Verify!!
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 684
Likes: 0
From: MD11 CRA
It's not really that difficult to view the loads for particular flights, even in the peak times, and figure out which ones give you the best chance of flying overseas. I don't think the international loads are quite as high as the domestic loads, but int'l loads are DAL's big moneymaker. As you say, you are taking a risk by flying standby. We're issued 6 x S-2 passes for each immediate family member on an annual basis, which places us at the top of the non-revenue pax list, but of course revenue passengers on standby are always a higher priority. Travelnet is pretty user-friendly and it let's you figure out pretty early whether it's worthwhile to make the trip to the airport or not. My wife & I have 4 children so that makes family vacations a little more challenging, but we've done it by watching the trends.
The downside for DAL is that with load factors in excess of 80%, rerouting passengers after big snowstorms is a difficult task...if a flight is cancelled and future flights are at 90% load, it takes 9 or 10 flights to get the customers to their destinations.
The downside for DAL is that with load factors in excess of 80%, rerouting passengers after big snowstorms is a difficult task...if a flight is cancelled and future flights are at 90% load, it takes 9 or 10 flights to get the customers to their destinations.
01-13-2011 | 10:10 AM
#153
Trust but Verify!!
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 684
Likes: 0
From: MD11 CRA
Good post. I agree with you about the potential growth opportunity at DAL versus SWA. I weighs on my mind from time to time. But for some of the same reasons as FedEx, I am not interested right now in working for DAL.
The only other caveat I will add is that thing called "scope". I will go on record right now saying I do not think the Legacies will ever recover scope. While I think SWA will NEVER let it get away from them.
What do I mean by this? I don't think the majority of pilots at DAL or UniCal will strike or do what it takes to regain scope. There is alot of talk on APC about this very issue. A lot of tough talk. But at the end of the day, when hard $$$ is involved for senior legacy pilots - they will vote with their pocket book. Acting in self-interest is perhaps the most predictable aspect of human nature. Offer enough money to the top 51% of pilots at the Legacies and domestic scope will be let go further.
In fact I think scope will continue to be eroded with international flying being the future target for Legacy management.
This could mean big trouble for all of us, including SWA if the Legacies can't pull this one together. I am pulling for you guys but you know that old saying about the horse and the barn. Best of luck!
I have great strength of belief in the SWA business model. I am a little more skeptical of DAL's business model. International flying for SWA is only a matter now of "when" and not a matter of "if".
Delta is a great place to be. Several of my friends are in ground school now at Delta. I will always wish them the best. Heck, 10 years from now we may all be sitting in a cubicle on the ground flying drone software on an iPad version 10 for minimum wage.
Come February 16, I may be making the best OR the worst decision of my professional aviation life. I'll let you know on my 65th birthday in 2033.
The only other caveat I will add is that thing called "scope". I will go on record right now saying I do not think the Legacies will ever recover scope. While I think SWA will NEVER let it get away from them.
What do I mean by this? I don't think the majority of pilots at DAL or UniCal will strike or do what it takes to regain scope. There is alot of talk on APC about this very issue. A lot of tough talk. But at the end of the day, when hard $$$ is involved for senior legacy pilots - they will vote with their pocket book. Acting in self-interest is perhaps the most predictable aspect of human nature. Offer enough money to the top 51% of pilots at the Legacies and domestic scope will be let go further.
In fact I think scope will continue to be eroded with international flying being the future target for Legacy management.
This could mean big trouble for all of us, including SWA if the Legacies can't pull this one together. I am pulling for you guys but you know that old saying about the horse and the barn. Best of luck!
I have great strength of belief in the SWA business model. I am a little more skeptical of DAL's business model. International flying for SWA is only a matter now of "when" and not a matter of "if".
Delta is a great place to be. Several of my friends are in ground school now at Delta. I will always wish them the best. Heck, 10 years from now we may all be sitting in a cubicle on the ground flying drone software on an iPad version 10 for minimum wage.
Come February 16, I may be making the best OR the worst decision of my professional aviation life. I'll let you know on my 65th birthday in 2033.
01-13-2011 | 11:10 AM
#154
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,717
Likes: 0
From: Retired
This is an interesting thread, that could be titled "Any airline vs any airline", however, Stephen Stills, the folk singer, way back in 1970, had the right idea when he sang these words: "If you can't be with the one you love, honey, love the one you're with." SWA, FedEx, DAL, all are really good gigs. If you work at one of them, count your lucky stars and plan well for your retirement. If you have fun along the way, even better, but remember, work is a four letter word. If you're young and have no spouse and/or kids, enjoy yourself now, but after you've married and have a family, it'll be all about providing for them, first, last, and foremost. You really don't know how your airline career will be until after you're retired for a few years and look back.
JJ
JJ
01-13-2011 | 12:05 PM
#155
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,224
Likes: 0
First let me start by saying FedEx is an excellent organization. Hands down one of the premier global companies and perhaps the #1 shipping company. You are fortunate to have had such a successful career there. The seat you sit in represents probably the top 1 or 2% of commercial pilots and every instrument/commercial/soon-to-be CFI pilots wet dream.
Please don't be shocked however, when I say it is not mine.
In full disclosure, I start ground school at SWA on Feb. 16. It is the job I have wanted since I started training for my commercial pilots license - years and years ago. I am 43 years old and fortunately have the chance to be where I want to be. I have never applied for a flying job at FedEx or UPS.
So in the spirit of this thread why SWA and not Fedex for me?
1) SWA has a Phoenix base for pilots, FedEx does not. Commuting to work is the last thing I ever want to do. Currently living in Chicago is not much fun for me or our family. Wifes family is in So. Cal., mine in New Mexico. Scottsdale is right in the middle and not so close either can just drop in unannounced.
2) I interact with our passengers (currently at Skywest) on every leg I fly. I greatly enjoy that part of my job. I personally view "flying the airplane" part of my career about 25% of what I do.
3) I personally prefer short haul flying. Every chance I get, I hand fly up to 20,000 ft and I hand fly down from 20,000 feet. In my opinion, the only fun "stuff" that happens flying a commercial aircraft happens below 20,000ft anyway. I love it. The culture at SWA is about hand flying airplanes. It is not about automation, it is not about managing an autopilot. To be fair, however, this culture is quickly changing at SWA because of the fuel efficiencies gained by letting a computer do the flying instead of a human. Oh well.
4) The culture at SWA is in my opinion the BEST employee culture of ANY American corporation. I could go on for days about this one, but I will only briefly mention this one item. For all the money SWA makes, I firmly the believe the employees are compensated fairly and equitably. For example Gary Kelley, SWA's CEO takes home approx. $1.7 million per year. In other words 9 to 10 times the pay rate of a SWA captain. Fred Smith on the other hand is compensated at what multiple of the average FedEx captain? His compensation fluctuates year to year but to be fair is 35x your salary a fair estimation? Certainly not outrageous, he should be highly compensated for his efforts. But so should you. Like you said you haul $7,500,000 in revenue when you takeoff and land. How much of that do you take home?
5) As far as traveling the world. Personally, I would rather do that with my family on vacation and not an airline crew on a 24 to 36 hour layover.
6) While this last one may sound a little offensive I do not mean it to be. Everything else considered, I absolutely would rather fly a measly, old 737 for the rest of my career than a 777 for another company.
I have a very strong suspicion, that many ex-wifes, many estranged children, many unrecoverable financial setbacks have befallen many a pilot in an unquenchable lust to pursue their big-shiney-jet syndrome.
If given the opportunity to fly a 777, would I take it? Absolutely. But until SWA gets them, I honestly could care less.
Anyway, the chat has been fun. Fly safe!
-JDFlyer
Please don't be shocked however, when I say it is not mine.
In full disclosure, I start ground school at SWA on Feb. 16. It is the job I have wanted since I started training for my commercial pilots license - years and years ago. I am 43 years old and fortunately have the chance to be where I want to be. I have never applied for a flying job at FedEx or UPS.
So in the spirit of this thread why SWA and not Fedex for me?
1) SWA has a Phoenix base for pilots, FedEx does not. Commuting to work is the last thing I ever want to do. Currently living in Chicago is not much fun for me or our family. Wifes family is in So. Cal., mine in New Mexico. Scottsdale is right in the middle and not so close either can just drop in unannounced.
2) I interact with our passengers (currently at Skywest) on every leg I fly. I greatly enjoy that part of my job. I personally view "flying the airplane" part of my career about 25% of what I do.
3) I personally prefer short haul flying. Every chance I get, I hand fly up to 20,000 ft and I hand fly down from 20,000 feet. In my opinion, the only fun "stuff" that happens flying a commercial aircraft happens below 20,000ft anyway. I love it. The culture at SWA is about hand flying airplanes. It is not about automation, it is not about managing an autopilot. To be fair, however, this culture is quickly changing at SWA because of the fuel efficiencies gained by letting a computer do the flying instead of a human. Oh well.
4) The culture at SWA is in my opinion the BEST employee culture of ANY American corporation. I could go on for days about this one, but I will only briefly mention this one item. For all the money SWA makes, I firmly the believe the employees are compensated fairly and equitably. For example Gary Kelley, SWA's CEO takes home approx. $1.7 million per year. In other words 9 to 10 times the pay rate of a SWA captain. Fred Smith on the other hand is compensated at what multiple of the average FedEx captain? His compensation fluctuates year to year but to be fair is 35x your salary a fair estimation? Certainly not outrageous, he should be highly compensated for his efforts. But so should you. Like you said you haul $7,500,000 in revenue when you takeoff and land. How much of that do you take home?
5) As far as traveling the world. Personally, I would rather do that with my family on vacation and not an airline crew on a 24 to 36 hour layover.
6) While this last one may sound a little offensive I do not mean it to be. Everything else considered, I absolutely would rather fly a measly, old 737 for the rest of my career than a 777 for another company.
I have a very strong suspicion, that many ex-wifes, many estranged children, many unrecoverable financial setbacks have befallen many a pilot in an unquenchable lust to pursue their big-shiney-jet syndrome.
If given the opportunity to fly a 777, would I take it? Absolutely. But until SWA gets them, I honestly could care less.
Anyway, the chat has been fun. Fly safe!
-JDFlyer
1. This is an excellent reason to work for SWA. You never know how crew basing works out, but I'd say PHX is one of the ones that will stay. I believe it is fairly senior which limits upgrade prospects (pay). I drive to work and would not want to do it any other way. I've commuted before and it was a real negative for me. However we probably have upwards of 70% that commute, so for some it probably isn't that bad. When you become senior, you can bid double DH trips so it really doesn't matter where you live, you actually get paid to go to work...
2. I'm glad you enjoy it. I don't spend my time at Greyhound stations, and to me, that is about what the airport is like. I don't work at a passenger carrier anymore, but I do spend a lot of my time at airports from deadhead travel. It kind of reminds me of barbeque fest in Memphis, you never know where some of those folks crawled in from.
3. I fly for a living. This isn't my idea of fun. If they'd pay me not to work, I'd take it in a heartbeat. I'd rather spend time with my family and friends... That said, I don't want to fly multiple legs. Hand flying a big aircraft doesn't do much for me, they want us to hand fly more at Fedex... It's a very good job, but it is still a job..
4. Cultures change. Bosses change. You think the employees at Eastern ever thought they'd work for a guy like Lorenzo?
How much stock does Kelly have? You think Herb didn't make any money? They ain't doing it for nothing even though they'd like you to think that...
As long as we're profitable and I get my check, I could care less how much money Fred Smith makes. Fred Smith won't be at Fedex forever either... Our culture will change as well... Also, never think that the senior folks won't sell you out either.... It's happened time and time again....
5. We get trip rig of 6.4 hours a day doing nothing. Most of us aren't complaining that the layovers are too short. I'd sit at Shreveport for 12 days. Well maybe not Shreveport....
6. Congratulations, you are in the right place....
I guess this shows that we all have different likes/dislikes and it is important to find your niche. Again, good luck...
01-13-2011 | 12:07 PM
#156
Living the dream!
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 915
Likes: 0
From: MD-11 Capt
JD, my concern about SWA as I have made the transition from military to civilian life was future growth and opportunity for advancement. As you say, SWA's labor-mgt relations are second to none, and people enjoy their jobs. SWA's retirements will be slower than other carriers because of a younger workforce. At DAL new hires will have the opportunity to move up 6,000 numbers on the seniority list in the next 10 years due to pending retirements. Regarding growth, domestic flying will be about 2.5% per year whereas international growth will be 5% per year out to year 2030, with the highlight being the Asian market in the double-digit range....same is true with cargo. With the Airtran merger, SWA is attempting to begin an international presence, but their business model will have to be more like a legacy carrier to make that happen, with widebody aircraft.
I have several buddies at SW (15 -16 yrs there) and like JD said they are all pi$$ed that the fun loving atmosphere is going away fast. And besides, JD may be in class with a movie star.
Oh, JD they are also Bitcing about extra training to start using the automation more and some new stuff. And they are hooking up the auto throttles. Not sure why you think you can't hand fly the jet all you want at FedEx but you can.
Have fun at SWA it's a great way to see the .... USA!
01-14-2011 | 08:32 PM
#157
Line Holder
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 235
Likes: 0
From: Bent Over
First let me start by saying FedEx is an excellent organization. Hands down one of the premier global companies and perhaps the #1 shipping company. You are fortunate to have had such a successful career there. The seat you sit in represents probably the top 1 or 2% of commercial pilots and every instrument/commercial/soon-to-be CFI pilots wet dream.
Please don't be shocked however, when I say it is not mine.
In full disclosure, I start ground school at SWA on Feb. 16. It is the job I have wanted since I started training for my commercial pilots license - years and years ago. I am 43 years old and fortunately have the chance to be where I want to be. I have never applied for a flying job at FedEx or UPS.
So in the spirit of this thread why SWA and not Fedex for me?
1) SWA has a Phoenix base for pilots, FedEx does not. Commuting to work is the last thing I ever want to do. Currently living in Chicago is not much fun for me or our family. Wifes family is in So. Cal., mine in New Mexico. Scottsdale is right in the middle and not so close either can just drop in unannounced.
2) I interact with our passengers (currently at Skywest) on every leg I fly. I greatly enjoy that part of my job. I personally view "flying the airplane" part of my career about 25% of what I do.
3) I personally prefer short haul flying. Every chance I get, I hand fly up to 20,000 ft and I hand fly down from 20,000 feet. In my opinion, the only fun "stuff" that happens flying a commercial aircraft happens below 20,000ft anyway. I love it. The culture at SWA is about hand flying airplanes. It is not about automation, it is not about managing an autopilot. To be fair, however, this culture is quickly changing at SWA because of the fuel efficiencies gained by letting a computer do the flying instead of a human. Oh well.
4) The culture at SWA is in my opinion the BEST employee culture of ANY American corporation. I could go on for days about this one, but I will only briefly mention this one item. For all the money SWA makes, I firmly the believe the employees are compensated fairly and equitably. For example Gary Kelley, SWA's CEO takes home approx. $1.7 million per year. In other words 9 to 10 times the pay rate of a SWA captain. Fred Smith on the other hand is compensated at what multiple of the average FedEx captain? His compensation fluctuates year to year but to be fair is 35x your salary a fair estimation? Certainly not outrageous, he should be highly compensated for his efforts. But so should you. Like you said you haul $7,500,000 in revenue when you takeoff and land. How much of that do you take home?
5) As far as traveling the world. Personally, I would rather do that with my family on vacation and not an airline crew on a 24 to 36 hour layover.
6) While this last one may sound a little offensive I do not mean it to be. Everything else considered, I absolutely would rather fly a measly, old 737 for the rest of my career than a 777 for another company.
I have a very strong suspicion, that many ex-wifes, many estranged children, many unrecoverable financial setbacks have befallen many a pilot in an unquenchable lust to pursue their big-shiney-jet syndrome.
If given the opportunity to fly a 777, would I take it? Absolutely. But until SWA gets them, I honestly could care less.
Anyway, the chat has been fun. Fly safe!
-JDFlyer
Please don't be shocked however, when I say it is not mine.
In full disclosure, I start ground school at SWA on Feb. 16. It is the job I have wanted since I started training for my commercial pilots license - years and years ago. I am 43 years old and fortunately have the chance to be where I want to be. I have never applied for a flying job at FedEx or UPS.
So in the spirit of this thread why SWA and not Fedex for me?
1) SWA has a Phoenix base for pilots, FedEx does not. Commuting to work is the last thing I ever want to do. Currently living in Chicago is not much fun for me or our family. Wifes family is in So. Cal., mine in New Mexico. Scottsdale is right in the middle and not so close either can just drop in unannounced.
2) I interact with our passengers (currently at Skywest) on every leg I fly. I greatly enjoy that part of my job. I personally view "flying the airplane" part of my career about 25% of what I do.
3) I personally prefer short haul flying. Every chance I get, I hand fly up to 20,000 ft and I hand fly down from 20,000 feet. In my opinion, the only fun "stuff" that happens flying a commercial aircraft happens below 20,000ft anyway. I love it. The culture at SWA is about hand flying airplanes. It is not about automation, it is not about managing an autopilot. To be fair, however, this culture is quickly changing at SWA because of the fuel efficiencies gained by letting a computer do the flying instead of a human. Oh well.
4) The culture at SWA is in my opinion the BEST employee culture of ANY American corporation. I could go on for days about this one, but I will only briefly mention this one item. For all the money SWA makes, I firmly the believe the employees are compensated fairly and equitably. For example Gary Kelley, SWA's CEO takes home approx. $1.7 million per year. In other words 9 to 10 times the pay rate of a SWA captain. Fred Smith on the other hand is compensated at what multiple of the average FedEx captain? His compensation fluctuates year to year but to be fair is 35x your salary a fair estimation? Certainly not outrageous, he should be highly compensated for his efforts. But so should you. Like you said you haul $7,500,000 in revenue when you takeoff and land. How much of that do you take home?
5) As far as traveling the world. Personally, I would rather do that with my family on vacation and not an airline crew on a 24 to 36 hour layover.
6) While this last one may sound a little offensive I do not mean it to be. Everything else considered, I absolutely would rather fly a measly, old 737 for the rest of my career than a 777 for another company.
I have a very strong suspicion, that many ex-wifes, many estranged children, many unrecoverable financial setbacks have befallen many a pilot in an unquenchable lust to pursue their big-shiney-jet syndrome.
If given the opportunity to fly a 777, would I take it? Absolutely. But until SWA gets them, I honestly could care less.
Anyway, the chat has been fun. Fly safe!
-JDFlyer
01-16-2011 | 12:37 PM
#158
Line Holder
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,209
Likes: 12
From: MD11 FO
I love this discussion. Had a friend who left DAL for FDX (purple nugget) then recently went back to DAL. Most people I tell that to give me a look of bewildered shock. I'll have to see what he thinks in a few years.
Seriously there's really no comparison between the entire salary and benefits package at FDX vs SWA. A fund, superior vacation, much better work rules, strong life insurance, health care and disability. SWA is great but it doesn't come close to equitable pay.
$52 billion one yr from FDX? I don't think so RT1200. Still a MUCH stronger company with a world wide presence but not $52 bil.
Hey one question I've got for SWA guys- how is the location of your layover hotels? I know DAL has some great ones-many better than ours but I was under the impression that most SWA hotels are near the airport and thus offering little opportunity to do anything fun? For example where do you layover in SFO, SAN, DEN, PDX, and SEA? That can make a big difference to the job as a good amount of enjoyment on trips for me comes from the layover.
Seriously there's really no comparison between the entire salary and benefits package at FDX vs SWA. A fund, superior vacation, much better work rules, strong life insurance, health care and disability. SWA is great but it doesn't come close to equitable pay.
$52 billion one yr from FDX? I don't think so RT1200. Still a MUCH stronger company with a world wide presence but not $52 bil.
Hey one question I've got for SWA guys- how is the location of your layover hotels? I know DAL has some great ones-many better than ours but I was under the impression that most SWA hotels are near the airport and thus offering little opportunity to do anything fun? For example where do you layover in SFO, SAN, DEN, PDX, and SEA? That can make a big difference to the job as a good amount of enjoyment on trips for me comes from the layover.
01-16-2011 | 12:59 PM
#159
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,673
Likes: 0
From: 7er
I love this discussion. Had a friend who left DAL for FDX (purple nugget) then recently went back to DAL. Most people I tell that to give me a look of bewildered shock. I'll have to see what he thinks in a few years.
Seriously there's really no comparison between the entire salary and benefits package at FDX vs SWA. A fund, superior vacation, much better work rules, strong life insurance, health care and disability. SWA is great but it doesn't come close to equitable pay.
$52 billion one yr from FDX? I don't think so RT1200. Still a MUCH stronger company with a world wide presence but not $52 bil.
Hey one question I've got for SWA guys- how is the location of your layover hotels? I know DAL has some great ones-many better than ours but I was under the impression that most SWA hotels are near the airport and thus offering little opportunity to do anything fun? For example where do you layover in SFO, SAN, DEN, PDX, and SEA? That can make a big difference to the job as a good amount of enjoyment on trips for me comes from the layover.
Seriously there's really no comparison between the entire salary and benefits package at FDX vs SWA. A fund, superior vacation, much better work rules, strong life insurance, health care and disability. SWA is great but it doesn't come close to equitable pay.
$52 billion one yr from FDX? I don't think so RT1200. Still a MUCH stronger company with a world wide presence but not $52 bil.
Hey one question I've got for SWA guys- how is the location of your layover hotels? I know DAL has some great ones-many better than ours but I was under the impression that most SWA hotels are near the airport and thus offering little opportunity to do anything fun? For example where do you layover in SFO, SAN, DEN, PDX, and SEA? That can make a big difference to the job as a good amount of enjoyment on trips for me comes from the layover.
Vegas SWA = Terribles
Vegas DAL = The Westin Causirina
Nuff said
01-16-2011 | 01:11 PM
#160
The Brown Dot +1
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 7,775
Likes: 0
From: 777B
Can you elaborate on the thought processes of these 2 classmates of yours?
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