MEL Balancing
05-29-2011 | 05:44 PM
#31
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From: Light Chop
This is not about a flight crew placard. Like you said, everyone does flight crew placarding. Before, when we would flight crew placard, we would leave with an "open write up" that would be signed off or "balanced" by maintenance when we arrived in a maintenance base. That is no longer the case. This is about the pilots doing the corrective action part of the log book or "balancing" it as Mason said and maintenance not even looking at the MELed equipment for the length the MEL is good for.
This is a step that maintenance would usually take 30 minutes to an hour to complete . In order to reduce delays, management thought it would be a good idea to put that responsibility on the pilots.
This is a step that maintenance would usually take 30 minutes to an hour to complete . In order to reduce delays, management thought it would be a good idea to put that responsibility on the pilots.
So this is something new to what airline?
05-29-2011 | 05:54 PM
#32
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From: Light Chop
BTW, I'm not paid to load the FMS. Nor am I paid to pull back on the elevator at VR. Or paid extra to meet stabilized approach criteria and landing inside the TDZ on the centerline. Or walk around in the rain. Or say goodbye to the passengers. Or MEL broken stuff.
05-29-2011 | 06:07 PM
#33
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Then you haven't been putting things on MEL. You've been writing it up. You wouldn't have needed to placard anything? An MEL isn't any good until you've written this item is "APU INOP." Call maintenance, tell them, get a control number and then write "APU deffered per MEL XXXX and control number ####".
So this is something new to what airline?
So this is something new to what airline?
I have no problem doing this on small things like a burnt out overhead light bulb but I do have a problem with something that might affect the safety of flight.
05-29-2011 | 06:16 PM
#34
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Well, it's just a matter of time until they try to implement this here too. This goes beyond flight crew placarding which I think almost all of us do, so we can continue on to a MX base. There seem to be very few that actually have pilots entering the MEL deferral, coordinating with MX Ops, and then flying the plane for however long the MEL says it can go before having it fixed or even looked at by a MX technician.
Some seem to think this is part of their job simply because their company says it is. These are probably the same folks who don't read their contracts and have no clue about the provisions within the RLA for changes to working conditions or rules.
I'm just glad that madness hasn't infected our pilot group yet.... Although with the number of new flow thru's lately who knows if we'll still have as solid a pilot group in another few years.
In short, their pilot group had never done this before. It was always a MX function. The company had unilaterally transferred the duties of another labor union employee (mechanics) to the pilots. Contracts aside... That's a no no under the RLA last I checked. Hope they fight it and win.
Some seem to think this is part of their job simply because their company says it is. These are probably the same folks who don't read their contracts and have no clue about the provisions within the RLA for changes to working conditions or rules.
I'm just glad that madness hasn't infected our pilot group yet.... Although with the number of new flow thru's lately who knows if we'll still have as solid a pilot group in another few years.
In short, their pilot group had never done this before. It was always a MX function. The company had unilaterally transferred the duties of another labor union employee (mechanics) to the pilots. Contracts aside... That's a no no under the RLA last I checked. Hope they fight it and win.
05-29-2011 | 06:19 PM
#35
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No, we would do that to get it into a maintenance base to have it looked over by a mechanic to see if there is a more serious problem. We do not have access to the maintenance pages of the MFDs that the mechanics use to troubleshoot problems. Now we are flying 3-5 days with MELed Ignitors, altitude selectors, flight guidance controllers, TCAS, GPWSs, fuel quantity indicators, VOR receivers, LAVs, FADECs etc.
I have no problem doing this on small things like a burnt out overhead light bulb but I do have a problem with something that might affect the safety of flight.
I have no problem doing this on small things like a burnt out overhead light bulb but I do have a problem with something that might affect the safety of flight.
05-29-2011 | 06:23 PM
#36
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From: Light Chop
No, we would do that to get it into a maintenance base to have it looked over by a mechanic to see if there is a more serious problem. We do not have access to the maintenance pages of the MFDs that the mechanics use to troubleshoot problems. Now we are flying 3-5 days with MELed Ignitors, altitude selectors, flight guidance controllers, TCAS, GPWSs, fuel quantity indicators, VOR receivers, LAVs FADECs etc.
I have no problem doing this on small things like a burnt out overhead light bulb but I do have a problem with something that might affect the safety of flight.
I have no problem doing this on small things like a burnt out overhead light bulb but I do have a problem with something that might affect the safety of flight.
For example, an ERJ-145 can have an ignition system on MEL. According to the MMEL you have 4, you only need 3 provided that (O) One may be inoperative provided engine is started by positioning the ignition selector knob to ON. It's category B so that falls under this:
Category B. Items in this category shall be repaired within three (3) consecutive calendar days (72 hours), excluding the day the malfunction was recorded in the aircraft maintenance record/logbook. For example, if it were recorded at 10 a.m. on January 26th, the three day interval would begin at midnight the 26th and end at midnight the 29th.
So you write it up then you call MX get a control number and maybe an amendment to your flight plan then you put that it was deferred per MEL 74-20-00. The next guy gets the plane tonight and sees 74-20-00 and looks it up in the MEL book and sees the new procedure will be to select ON and that this is valid as a category B item until Wednesday night at midnight then it's a pumpkin. It's up to maintenance control and you to ensure if there are multiple MELs that could make a compounding issue.
So I take it this is American Eagle?
05-29-2011 | 06:43 PM
#37
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OK for those confused.
1. The captain writes up, APU INOP.
2. Captain (if it is flight crew placard able) flight crew placards it as MEL whatever, MOC control number. When the plane came into a MX base, MX would come out and place a permanent MEL in the MX side of the MX log book the MX corrective action block.
3. Now the Captain regarding the item will be required to flight crew placard and do the MX corrective action and be responsible that all previous MEL's are appropriate (which is what MX used to do) and MX will not come to see the MX issue until the MEL runs out.
Terminology may be different from one airline to the next. Every company I worked for the left side of the MX Log Book was filled in by Captain and MX but only MX will fill out the right side of the MX Log Book. Now we are doing MX administrative work which has additional legalities via the FAR's.
But never fear, the ALPA MEC is hard at work giving the store away.
1. The captain writes up, APU INOP.
2. Captain (if it is flight crew placard able) flight crew placards it as MEL whatever, MOC control number. When the plane came into a MX base, MX would come out and place a permanent MEL in the MX side of the MX log book the MX corrective action block.
3. Now the Captain regarding the item will be required to flight crew placard and do the MX corrective action and be responsible that all previous MEL's are appropriate (which is what MX used to do) and MX will not come to see the MX issue until the MEL runs out.
Terminology may be different from one airline to the next. Every company I worked for the left side of the MX Log Book was filled in by Captain and MX but only MX will fill out the right side of the MX Log Book. Now we are doing MX administrative work which has additional legalities via the FAR's.
But never fear, the ALPA MEC is hard at work giving the store away.
05-29-2011 | 06:52 PM
#38
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Would you consider not having GPWS a safety of flight issue while going into RNO or any airport in CO? What about not having TCAS while going into SAN or any other socal airport with VFR traffic scattered everywhere. I've had multiple RAs there without ever seeing the aircraft and I was looking.
05-29-2011 | 07:02 PM
#39
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From: Poodle Whisperer
Would you consider not having GPWS a safety of flight issue while going into RNO or any airport in CO? What about not having TCAS while going into SAN or any other socal airport with VFR traffic scattered everywhere. I've had multiple RAs there without ever seeing the aircraft and I was looking.
Be a captain and don't accept an airplane like that.
05-29-2011 | 07:04 PM
#40
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From: Light Chop
OK for those confused.
1. The captain writes up, APU INOP.
2. Captain (if it is flight crew placard able) flight crew placards it as MEL whatever, MOC control number. When the plane came into a MX base, MX would come out and place a permanent MEL in the MX side of the MX log book the MX corrective action block.
3. Now the Captain regarding the item will be required to flight crew placard and do the MX corrective action and be responsible that all previous MEL's are appropriate (which is what MX used to do) and MX will not come to see the MX issue until the MEL runs out.
Terminology may be different from one airline to the next. Every company I worked for the left side of the MX Log Book was filled in by Captain and MX but only MX will fill out the right side of the MX Log Book. Now we are doing MX administrative work which has additional legalities via the FAR's.
But never fear, the ALPA MEC is hard at work giving the store away.
1. The captain writes up, APU INOP.
2. Captain (if it is flight crew placard able) flight crew placards it as MEL whatever, MOC control number. When the plane came into a MX base, MX would come out and place a permanent MEL in the MX side of the MX log book the MX corrective action block.
3. Now the Captain regarding the item will be required to flight crew placard and do the MX corrective action and be responsible that all previous MEL's are appropriate (which is what MX used to do) and MX will not come to see the MX issue until the MEL runs out.
Terminology may be different from one airline to the next. Every company I worked for the left side of the MX Log Book was filled in by Captain and MX but only MX will fill out the right side of the MX Log Book. Now we are doing MX administrative work which has additional legalities via the FAR's.
But never fear, the ALPA MEC is hard at work giving the store away.
To put everything on the discrepancy side is leaving the corrective side blank, as in it's not resolved and you're flying with an open write up. But if thats what AE had approved then so be it, but if they're changing it then welcome to normalcy.
I don't see why maintenance needs to come out at a maintenance hub and do anything about it. If there isn't a TCAS to replace it or they don't want to deal with it then they've got either 10 days (according to that MEL) until it's grounded unless of course the other goes out then it's grounded immediately.
But to I guess after 3 pages answer the OP question, yes, Delta has you write on both sides of the log page. I want to say Coex did too but I don't frankly remember.
Also per the Delta FOM the Captain and Maintenance Coordinator have joint responsibility to ensure that MEL expiration periods are not exceeded for MEL Category B, C, and D items.
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