Why is fapa williing to give up so much?
 

Let me start by saying that I fly for Republic on the FFD side so I do not have much interaction with the F9 pilot group. Let me also say that I do believe that the majority of the Frontier pilot group is made up of good people that mean well.

That being said, I must ask...

Why does it seem like FAPA is so willing to play ball with the company and take concessions? I understand that until the vote on June 17th it is just speculation that the pilot group will vote yes for the proposed concessions, but Bedford seems to be very confident about the whole process.

This is an open question to any F9 drivers. I just want to better understand why you would be willing to take concessions for "good faith" profit type sharing in the future? Not to mention, if you do vote in the concessions then Bedford said that he would then go after every other F9 workgroups (maint., Gate agents, ramp workers etc.) 401k and other benefits and wages thus seemingly making you a target to all other work groups. I have worked under the serpent disguised as Bedford and Co and have learned to worry about agreeing to anything that they propose and that’s why seeing FAPA help the cause worries me so much.

Thank you for your time,
3-1/2 year very junior FO

Because they love their company. Laugh if you want. I know several F9 folks including pilots and they have an affinity for their airline that many others don't. Remember hearing about the throng of workers who greeted the plane returning with execs from NYC after spurning the Southwest bid and going with Republic? It's a little different at F9 from what I'm told and what I see...

Reminds me of the same kind of spirit that employees had for the original Frontier back in the 80's when all the union groups, except IAM of course, agreed to concession after concession to keep the airline running and eventually came very close to an employee buyout and ownership.

It's about time someone in this industry stood up for themselves and didn't take a pay cut. Frontier is about to bring us all down one more notch if they vote yes to this crap. Cmon guys, this is out of hand.

If anything they should be voting to INCREASE pay.

The F9 pilots need to realize all the concessions in the World will not save them from the onslaught of a revitalized CAL/United and Southwest battling for Denver. Delta is also running a lot of flight out of there.

Frontier is a cool airline and I get the employee's loyalty, but Republic does not know how to make the secret sauce which would allow Frontier to beat their much better established competition. The Frequent Flier and network advantages of SWA, UAL and DAL out of Denver will drain the badly needed high revenue passengers away.

Frontier should have never had a cash crunch and never entered bankruptcy. But it happened and the results are what they are. Hopefully we can all pull together to help the F9 guys find careers that restore some of what they lost.

The part that I think the pro concession crowd is missing is that the problems F9 is having are not related to pilot pay or benefits. if the company can't turn a profit with already below average wages and 14 months of "record" load factors then management is doing something wrong. To think you're going to "save" this airline is dumb.

See USAirways East.

Before the F9 pilots vote for concessions I really hope they look at the Frontier costs vs Southwest, Airtran, and Jet Blue. F9 costs per seat mile excluding fuel is with in 0.2 Cents per seat mile of the other companies. Revenue per seat mile however is over 1 CENT per seat mile lower than both Jet Blue and Airtran and 2 cents lower than Southewest. The problem is not a cost issue. You dont see Jetblue taking a wage concession to make money. I am willing to bet every one at Southwest makes more than their counterparts at Frontier. Maybe management should figure out how to make revenue instead of bringing down your contract.

That will never happen unless you can come up with a national seniority list and an ability to make lateral moves. Absent that, pilots will continue to do whatever preserves the job they have at the time.

Amazing how easy it is to tell someone else to fall on their sword...

You can't fix stupid......

Bedford needs the $ for his landscaping and basketball court upkeep. It's about the children, not the business plan.

If you equate a job change to suicide. Most rational people realize that in an uncertain market flexibility is the key to making the most of opportunity.

The Frontier pilots did negotiate something very interesting. Their "concessions" came with an agreement for Republic to divest their majority holding in the Company. The history of these sorts of moves does not provide a lot of hope for a positive outcome, but TWA managed to buy itself some time with such a move.

The fact Republic would agree to such a thing tells volumes about their reconsideration of last year's growth strategy. This tells us volumes about the viability of Frontier's business model.

So no, I don't advocate career suicide. I advocate acknowledging business reality and not doubling down on a losing bet.

Fixed it for ya.

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein, (attributed)
US (German-born) physicist (1879 - 1955)

Relinquishing the companies majority stake is to be sought in good faith only. Nothing says they have to do it. A good faith effort by this company is worth about as much as a used piece of toilet paper.

FOOLISHNESS is to take concessions.... it is such a small portion of the whole financial picture. Shame on your FAPA leaders. Look at the guys at USAirways...working for peanuts while the airline still bleeds big bucks.

BINGO-- its as if they entered bankruptcy, b/c they saw everyone else is doing it and it became mainstream to get back concessions-- well know even more concessions wont begin to help-- ur totally right, sw and the new ual will slaughter them over time

How can BB extend an agreement with an entity that, in all likelihood, not exist in a few days?

Good Faith effort is what led to our amazing stock purchase program for the employees.

By getting them to agree to it before the vote is finished.

The Frontier pilots are in a position where they will not have a job in the near future. It might be months, it might be a year or two, but losing their jobs is inevitable. Best case scenario at this point is they continue working under their current contract and maybe some of them end up flying as Republic captains. This is the best outcome they can expect at this point. It's a bad situation to be in. Taking concessions is a hail mary. The chances of it helping is slim to none, but they are still going to take their chance and probably get hurt more in the process. They are also hurting everyone else in the process by lowering the bar again.

Skippy and friends, you're geniuses. Mental juggernauts.

Bedford traded FAPA a pay freeze in exchange for ownership in the future independent Frontier Airlines as well as a profit sharing plan tied to the same matrix as the management bonus plan. It's simply converting future raises from short term gains to long term investments.

But none of that matters. All the Frontier pilots want, and would pay a lot more to get is to reverse the raping and pillaging that the IBT has done to their careers. We would rather succeed or fail on our own than to see the IBT steal what we have earned and built over a long period of time.

And our pay freeze still pays double or triple the rate of the average RAH pilot, so don't throw stones at people taking pay freezes in exchange for ownership when you gross about what the F9 guys pay in taxes.

Ya ... now they don't have Chautauqua to subsidize their loses. The doors will be closed shortly. I think Southwest is the real winner.. they are the smart player in this mess.

Care to explain that a little more? And how did the IBT do anything to your career at all? What's changed because we're represented by the IBT?

LOA 67
But remember it says:
The company will make a "good faith" effort to reduce their ownership stake to a minority by December 2014. Right, "good faith" from BB? Sure.

FAPA does not want to be IBT and BB used this to play them.

When the door closes at F9 ...then the F9 boys will start demanding to be on the SLI. You heard it hear first.

good point. The mec may even use this "backup plan" as a selling point to get enough yes votes.

I can only speak for myself, but I can assure you I will never want to be on your seniority list. If Frontier goes away, I will gladly run as fast as I can away from anything Republic. I think most Frontier pilots have no desire to fly for a regional or commuter again. We will either move on to other majors or do something else respectable for a living. A whole different talent pool here gang. Not just a bunch of ERAU grads with no other skill sets here.

Wasn't EAL pilot's battle cry, "Full pay 'til the last day"?

Well,since they can't displace a RAH pilot,they will have to resign their seniority and start at the bottom-bwhahahaha ! Maybe we can give them "preferential interviews"...Bwahahaha ! Seriously,the chance of this happening is just about zero.

+ 1,000,000.00%
been there, done that.

It was for Lorenzo.

The EAL pilots' motto was honor other employee groups' strikes

Then why did you say yes to concessions and the signed off scope lower than 125,000 lbs? You can hand me a C172 and I will fly it for the right wage .. You don't want to fly a regional aircraft ? then why dont you agree to Skybus wages and make sure you really provide BB what he wants with even lower costs..

That is a clever comment. Let's compare a regional contract that was signed in 2003 when the largest aircraft on property was a 50 seat jet to an Airbus operation. You sir are a imbecile. I want you to keep your Airline. As far as I am concerned, you are a cyst on the operation that is known as RAH. The subsidizing of F9 needs to stop. I am done trying to play nice with the ignorant 5% that comes from the F9 seniority list. You 5 percenters need to get together and put all your 2 brains cells together and them come back to me when you are ready to make a stand to a management that has nothing but ill-will toward labor.

Think that ship sailed a while back. Skybus had the worst contract out there and how did it end up? Sometimes a lemon is a lemon. Has nothing to do with the people behind the control wheel, though the integration dodging and concessions does, but the simple fact that Denver is a market Frontier can't survive in. Hasn't been able to for years. Your concessions will not save a place with huge debt, $50 tickets, decreasing market share, and $100 oil. At what point do you actually consider it a "fail"? I'm not saying it can't be turned around but it's not going to be because of concessions. Frontier needs the kind of magic DAL and NWA pulled during BK, WAY lower lease rates and debt/rates, to make that happen.

For once we agree.

Dude have you looked at the seniority list Eichen made? Who argued for that list?... the IBT. It potentially ruined the careers of more than 50% of our pilots. I say "potentially" because I doubt we will be in business in 7 years, but who knows.

You 5%'s at F9 are unreal.....walking around spouting off like you are the SEAL Team 6 of the airlines. Here's a newsflash oh God of the skies.......you don't make much more than any other major/LLC and the Airbus is NOT the Holy Grail. You are a failed airline grasping at straws with this little stunt.

Guys, flame wars on web boards solve nothing.

Seems to be a lot of self-righteous BS from the RJ guys to me. The RJ has SINGLE HANDEDLY eviscerated the Mainline Airline Pilot Profession. Nothing worse than seeing 4 digit flight numbers on the FIDS Screen. UAL is down 50% in 10 years, how about the ENTIRE RJ "profession" walking out to protest the Chinese Coolie Labor provision ya'll work under? Maybe a look in the mirror may be more evocative of who is the PROBLEM in the "profession"

DC7C,

Don't see how the RJ guys are responsible. They never voted on our outsourcing ... we did.

Expecting a pilot to refuse a job won't work, never has. We formed a union so we could negotiate protections for our senior pilots longevity and seniority. In the last fifteen years we have voted for contracts which have undone much of our predecessor's effort.

As far as "self righteous BS" goes, the Republic guys have done an excellent job controlling their scope. They have one list which spans multiple certificates. A technique ALPA would do well to emulate, IMHO.

No disrespect intended. But, you and I hold the power to fix this problem more than the Republic of F9 pilots do.