Of course the problem could be looked at another way.

Keep the seniority numbers... just change the compensation, schedule and quality of life slope between the junior and senior. That wide divide is the real issue. No one wants to have to start over when the slope is that steep.

SP

 

Personally, I think seniority should apply for vacation accruals, boarding priority on non-rev travel, and things like that. But it should not govern everything in life, and especially not pay.

Year 1 pay at US airlines should apply to newbies fresh outta flight school with no experience.

I think Emirates has a decent setup that I think would be a good starting point in the US. The problem is that US pilots are too entrenched in this seniority game to ever consider change...

 

Not necessarily entrenched as many would like to seriously look at re-vamping how one gets paid over a career. The problem you'll face, however, is convincing those who did suffer the years of low wages to give up their now "high" wages. How do you bring up the junior low wages without taking from those who "paid their dues?"

 

Many good points here.

Flyby1206,

I think you're off track WRT unions. It's sad to see people let their past experiences with ALPA National cloud the services their local councils provided them. Fact is this, you can't compare corporate America jobs with airline pilots. Many have already provided many examples as to why it wouldn't work, & my biggest is safety. LuvJockey already hit on it, but too many butt kissers would be willing to compromise safety to make it to the top.

 

Semi-correct. If you want a 30 year military career and make it to the "stars" you have to be a proficient brown noser. However the comment about flying is off base.

The quickest way to ensure you will never make it past O-4 is to keep opting for flying billets. Pass up those cherry staff jobs and you're done. If your goal in the military is to get flight training and enough hours for an airline job (as mine was), find the billets that offer the most flying.

But, understand that you're giving up being an Admiral if you do that.

 

Like the rest of the business world. Be a better "team player" and "yes" man/woman. Please your boss and that means be a cheaper pilot.

Sooo........use less fuel then your counterparts by taking less and flying shorter routes closer to or thru storms. Don't make too much of an issue about MTX issues as that costs money too. Work more days or be willing......no eager, to fly at short notice and any time and for christ's sake don't ever call in sick.........even if you are.

Since you are employed at will and can be terminated at any time, for any reason (or no reason at all), you cannot afford to make an error, cause any problems (whether real or just perceived that way by a boss that doesn't care for you) or become a burden.

See...........it's easy.

 

I fully understand that, I was a military guy once too. My point was, without a seniority number it becomes a Suck Up to Move Up organization, like others above have pointed out, rife with political back-stabbing to get ahead.

A long time ago, when I was in the Air Guard, and also had my airline job, I was at a drill weekend, trying to convince one of my full-timer buddies that he should also get out and get an airline job. He said he didn't want to "start at the bottom and be a Flight Engineer (everyone's first seat back then, at every major, 1985 era).

Then we started talking about how a Seniority List works, in terms of who gets to upgrade to F/O and Capt. He asked, "You mean if some guy is a complete slacker, but he's senior to a hard working guy, the slacker gets to upgrade FIRST??"

I said, "Yup, but that's really the beauty of the system, you don't have to kiss anyone's arse to move up. No matter how good, or how bad you are, when your number comes up, you upgrade. Of course if you really are an idiot they can flunk you at your sim check and send you back to the panel."

Long story short, he stayed in his full time job at the Air Guard, made Col. before he got out.

I have always thought the biggest disincentive to making the Military a life long career, is exactly what you pointed out above. To move up above O4, you have to give up flying and start taking desk jobs.

I only took up flying to get out of doing a desk job in the first place!

Some people love to fly, some people like to sit behind a desk and talk on a phone all day.

Oh, and "...the world needs ditch diggers too Danny."

 

I agree that I definitely skew towards the anti-ALPA side, but we all have biases. I havent been treated particularly poorly at previous ALPA carriers, but I just cannot endorse the inefficiencies and lack of innovation they bring with them.

It is frustrating to be in an industry that used to be the leading edge of technology and innovation, but has since become the laggard. It isnt completely the fault of unions, the government plays a much larger role in the crippling of the business. I just think there is a huge potential for global growth in aviation, and we (as the USA) could really lead the way if we got our $hit together.

 

Agreed. ALPA National is terribly bloated, & our government can't even agree on how to keep our Nation from defaulting on it's own loans. This country is falling behind in so many categories. It's frustrating & sad.

 

Kinda have to disagree there. When they lost USAir dues, they had to do some rather draconian staff cuts.

Of course, there's always more that could be done...as with government spending.