DAL to reduce by 4-5% by 4th Qtr
09-20-2011, 01:45 PM
#141
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 4,921
Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver
We're not trying to "punish" the regional pilots. It's not the same situation as SWA and AirTran pilots at all. We just want to bring our flying back to mainline where it belongs. The RJ pilots have had the benefit of a tremendous qualification building opportunity and I'll bet most of them would be happy to come to Delta as new hires.
This is a very unpredictable industry. Things change. Outsourcing is one of those fads that hasn't worked out. Like most other bad ideas, it (hopefully) will end soon. The good news is that getting rid of outsourcing (improving our scope) will provide a great opportunity for many qualified regional pilots to achieve their ultimate objective of working for a major airline. FWIW, I'm not in favor of merging with any of the Delta Connection carriers or stapling their pilots. They should apply and go through the interview process just like everyone else.
You're trying to make a comparison that is not relevant.
This is a very unpredictable industry. Things change. Outsourcing is one of those fads that hasn't worked out. Like most other bad ideas, it (hopefully) will end soon. The good news is that getting rid of outsourcing (improving our scope) will provide a great opportunity for many qualified regional pilots to achieve their ultimate objective of working for a major airline. FWIW, I'm not in favor of merging with any of the Delta Connection carriers or stapling their pilots. They should apply and go through the interview process just like everyone else.
You're trying to make a comparison that is not relevant.
09-20-2011, 01:47 PM
#142
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Originally Posted by hockeypilot44
I don't see outsourcing ending. Delta is still signing feeder contracts as fast as possible to make sure our scope is maxed out before contract negotiations.
09-20-2011, 01:52 PM
#143
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: CA
Posts: 1,207
Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver
We're not trying to "punish" the regional pilots. It's not the same situation as SWA and AirTran pilots at all. We just want to bring our flying back to mainline where it belongs. The RJ pilots have had the benefit of a tremendous qualification building opportunity and I'll bet most of them would be happy to come to Delta as new hires.
This is a very unpredictable industry. Things change. Outsourcing is one of those fads that hasn't worked out. Like most other bad ideas, it (hopefully) will end soon. The good news is that getting rid of outsourcing (improving our scope) will provide a great opportunity for many qualified regional pilots to achieve their ultimate objective of working for a major airline. FWIW, I'm not in favor of merging with any of the Delta Connection carriers or stapling their pilots. They should apply and go through the interview process just like everyone else.
You're trying to make a comparison that is not relevant.
This is a very unpredictable industry. Things change. Outsourcing is one of those fads that hasn't worked out. Like most other bad ideas, it (hopefully) will end soon. The good news is that getting rid of outsourcing (improving our scope) will provide a great opportunity for many qualified regional pilots to achieve their ultimate objective of working for a major airline. FWIW, I'm not in favor of merging with any of the Delta Connection carriers or stapling their pilots. They should apply and go through the interview process just like everyone else.
You're trying to make a comparison that is not relevant.
I respectfully disagree with the statement.
09-20-2011, 01:59 PM
#144
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
nope!
My statement come from the opinion that a National and International network is key. We have that though the merger, but DAL has commitments like the DCI CPA's, Airport leases and obligations, etc that cause the over all network to be inefficient. Frequency and market share were the buzz words last decade, and they have given way to RASM, and total revenue generation. The problem in this shift is special interests, and existing contracts. DAL will get to the point of a 10-20 percent reduction in the amount of departures they do, though larger gauge jets. It is painfully slow with the type of agreement that have been signed in years past. DCI is morphing but slower than it should. Our route network is doing the same, but again slower than it should due to contracts and existing obligations.
I highly suspect that the DAL of 2020 will be totally different than the one we see today. From a pilots perspective that can be good or bad. As Bar states, Unity(not the over used word, but the real grassroots unity where one job is not worth more the the next) is key. We fly jet, and need to be willing to put job security and protection to the top of the list. If it cannot be bought or sold, the job security and benefit from this belief will allow us to see the ensuing decades be far kinder than the last to this career.
* I said DAL departure, not Delta pilot departures. That point is significant.
My statement come from the opinion that a National and International network is key. We have that though the merger, but DAL has commitments like the DCI CPA's, Airport leases and obligations, etc that cause the over all network to be inefficient. Frequency and market share were the buzz words last decade, and they have given way to RASM, and total revenue generation. The problem in this shift is special interests, and existing contracts. DAL will get to the point of a 10-20 percent reduction in the amount of departures they do, though larger gauge jets. It is painfully slow with the type of agreement that have been signed in years past. DCI is morphing but slower than it should. Our route network is doing the same, but again slower than it should due to contracts and existing obligations.
I highly suspect that the DAL of 2020 will be totally different than the one we see today. From a pilots perspective that can be good or bad. As Bar states, Unity(not the over used word, but the real grassroots unity where one job is not worth more the the next) is key. We fly jet, and need to be willing to put job security and protection to the top of the list. If it cannot be bought or sold, the job security and benefit from this belief will allow us to see the ensuing decades be far kinder than the last to this career.
* I said DAL departure, not Delta pilot departures. That point is significant.
09-20-2011, 02:20 PM
#145
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: CA
Posts: 1,207
Originally Posted by Ed Harley
...and you're forgetting that the regional carriers that we'd like to staple to our list fly much smaller aircraft.
Air Tran is not only flying similar sized aircraft to SWA, they're flying international routes, which SWA doesn't.
Your argument isn't comparing apples to apples.
Air Tran is not only flying similar sized aircraft to SWA, they're flying international routes, which SWA doesn't.
Your argument isn't comparing apples to apples.
Boeing Introduces 717-200 Airplane as New Regional Jet
Click image to view Photo Release.These images are available for editorial use by news media on: boeingmedia.com
SEATTLE, Jan. 08, 1998 -- The Boeing Company today introduced and renamed the newest member of its commercial airplane family -- the Boeing 717-200 twinjet.
"The 717-200 is uniquely qualified to meet the evolving requirements of the new regional jetliner market," said Ron Woodard, president, Boeing Commercial Airplane Group. "It's a 100-seat airplane market that demands comfort, low operating costs and high schedule reliability. This is the plane to meet that need."
DC9-50
Accommodation: 125 passengers Cruising Speed: 505 mph (813 km/h) Range: 785 miles (1,263 km) Engine: 2 jet engines, fuselage-mounted Cargo Capacity: 1.85 tons (1,678 kg)
CRJ900
90 (1-class, maximum)
09-20-2011, 03:23 PM
#146
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2011
Posts: 264
Well first off, our current scope doesn't allow 90 seat flying to be outsourced. We have a limited number of 76 seat aircraft and lots of 50 seat aircraft flown by regionals.
Second, I remember Boeing was desperately trying to convinced airlines in the late 90's that the 717 was a regional jet since they didn't (and still don't) produce one. No one fell for it.
Third, most all unions (including southwest) buy off on the "larger the jet, larger the pay" philosophy. SWAPA in fact negotiated more benefits/pay with SWA to fly the 737-800.
So you're still not convincing me that a 76 seat regional pilot is equally merged with a 125 seat or larger delta pilot.
Second, I remember Boeing was desperately trying to convinced airlines in the late 90's that the 717 was a regional jet since they didn't (and still don't) produce one. No one fell for it.
Third, most all unions (including southwest) buy off on the "larger the jet, larger the pay" philosophy. SWAPA in fact negotiated more benefits/pay with SWA to fly the 737-800.
So you're still not convincing me that a 76 seat regional pilot is equally merged with a 125 seat or larger delta pilot.
09-20-2011, 03:38 PM
#147
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
Originally Posted by shoelu
It seems that 90 seat aircraft and 125 seat aircraft are in fact similar. Yes they are in fact flying "Regional" aircraft which is exactly what Boeing terms 60% of the AT fleet. It may not be exactly apples to apples, but it probably a lot closer than your willing to admit. It is really more deeply rooted in the principle of the whole thing.
Boeing Introduces 717-200 Airplane as New Regional Jet
Click image to view Photo Release.
These images are available for editorial use by news media on: boeingmedia.com
SEATTLE, Jan. 08, 1998 -- The Boeing Company today introduced and renamed the newest member of its commercial airplane family -- the Boeing 717-200 twinjet.
"The 717-200 is uniquely qualified to meet the evolving requirements of the new regional jetliner market," said Ron Woodard, president, Boeing Commercial Airplane Group. "It's a 100-seat airplane market that demands comfort, low operating costs and high schedule reliability. This is the plane to meet that need."
DC9-50
Accommodation: 125 passengers Cruising Speed: 505 mph (813 km/h) Range: 785 miles (1,263 km) Engine: 2 jet engines, fuselage-mounted Cargo Capacity: 1.85 tons (1,678 kg)
CRJ900
90 (1-class, maximum)
Boeing Introduces 717-200 Airplane as New Regional Jet
Click image to view Photo Release.These images are available for editorial use by news media on: boeingmedia.com
SEATTLE, Jan. 08, 1998 -- The Boeing Company today introduced and renamed the newest member of its commercial airplane family -- the Boeing 717-200 twinjet.
"The 717-200 is uniquely qualified to meet the evolving requirements of the new regional jetliner market," said Ron Woodard, president, Boeing Commercial Airplane Group. "It's a 100-seat airplane market that demands comfort, low operating costs and high schedule reliability. This is the plane to meet that need."
DC9-50
Accommodation: 125 passengers Cruising Speed: 505 mph (813 km/h) Range: 785 miles (1,263 km) Engine: 2 jet engines, fuselage-mounted Cargo Capacity: 1.85 tons (1,678 kg)
CRJ900
90 (1-class, maximum)
Point taken, then you should have no concern whatsoever when your case goes to arbitration. Good luck.
09-20-2011, 04:07 PM
#149
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: CA
Posts: 1,207
Originally Posted by scambo1
Point taken, then you should have no concern whatsoever when your case goes to arbitration. Good luck.
09-20-2011, 04:10 PM
#150
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Originally Posted by shoelu
You guys are absolutely comical. You attempt to paint SWA as "Satan with Epaulettes", yet you plot and scheme to do the exact same thing you berate us for. If I understand your argument (and I think I do), you want to take current aircraft flying Delta code but at a completely separate airline and bring those aircraft and that flying to the Delta certificate but staple those pilots to the bottom of the Delta seniority list. You want to work out a deal that is unfavorable to their seniority, but provides them with long term potential gain in stability, pay and work rules. You would need to work out some type of arrangement through the mutual agreement of both groups prior to this happening because you would fear the potential outcome of an arbitrated seniority list in this case. Does that sum it up pretty well? The hypocrisy of this board is absolutely STUNNING. I guess the Delta Connection carriers don't measure up to the Delta threshold of pilots that deserve fair treatment that you so willingly hand to the AirTran folks, because they after all only fly RJ's. Next time you choose to throw stones, please do so into the mirror.
- Well first, was the reason to staple AAI pilots based on the size of the 717 in the first place or because SWA > AAI?
- To staple just because of the size of the 717 inevitably means you're stapling 737 pilots too, they're the same list. There isn't a DCI... sigh outside of RAH... that flies an airplane that is the same size of a mainline Delta jet.
- BTW, if size matters most, the 717 can 117 seats, the 735 is 122. But the 717 is 2 class. What is a single class 717? What if it's 123 seats? Would it then be okay to staple a proportional number of SWA pilots to the bottom of the AAI list? That's why its not size based including with DCI, the reason for a staple if not because of size. See next point...
- Now say DAL merged with JB who has A320s and E190s. Do we staple the E190 pilots? imho, no. Do you DOH? JB pilots would baulk at that and rightfully so. You need to ratio in but where? Probably where the most senior DAL pilot in NYC on a A320 sized aircraft sits. That's a guess. But we're not stapling because of size, that's not why we say DCI should be stapled.
- The CRj900/E175/DC9/MD88/735/733/717 are regional aircraft. Stated another way, the 717 and 735/733 are regional aircraft. You'd need to merge the 717 and 735/733 pilots together at the bottom thus no staple. But what about at DAL? The CRJ900 does JFK-ATL just like the 88! Why staple the CRJ900 pilots? Well, you know who else does JFK-ATL? The 757, 88, 320, 764, 767 and A330. So does the CRJ900 = A330 in terms of career expectations? Nope. That's why you don't merge based on that issue.
Now why do we say a staple is wrong for SWA-AAI? Because we think they're apples to apples airlines. Your career expectations in terms of aircraft size is identical and I think AAI was on the verge of a 738 order right? Still identical to SWA. But why are DAL-DCI not apples-to-apples operations? Who can scope who? And what are the career expectations of a DCI pilot?
But for the record Shoe, I want to end DCI, not merge with it. Then I want to hire.
I see nothing good coming from a merger. How much of ASA do you take when some of the flying is UAL Exp? How much of Skywest do you take or do you just favor Comair and ASA? But what about Pinnacle, Mesaba and Compass? Do you put those other regionals over Compass who have a complete flow through and were hired by NWA? How about RAH? Who do we take? Shuttle, CHQ, Frontier pilots, mixture of both?
Too much of a headache. Just be glad SWA never had a single turboprop flying off property for them. Seating size masked the CRJ-100's entry into the system. AMR had the right idea, we fly all jets. But they didn't win that war and that was a loss. It's a road your airline, and FedEx for that matter, never went down in the first place. You're lucky and just be thankful you don't have this battle to fight.
Last edited by forgot to bid; 09-20-2011 at 04:22 PM.
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