That he does. It isn't divided between CA & FO. Thanks for the correction.

Thanks Ed, or is it Richard? :rolleyes:

Why do you continue to shill for a discredited study by a discredited partisan author? What is it that you gain from touting false data?

Carl

Based on stated W-2's from SWA guys, average Captain makes $230,000... average FO makes $160,000, meaning average pilot salary is $195,000. I have no reason to doubt the SWA guys' integrity, and it's been a consistent number from many of them. So, yeah, $166,000 seems very low.

Oh, and don't forget the SWA welcome packet to AirTran pilots!

Hey Carl,

I can't stand Bill Swellbar either.

But the underlying data is legit, the way he puts it together isn't.
For instance the average salary chart, all it does is takes "money spent on pilots" and divides it up by "number of pilots"

Each airline in the chart may have different ways on accounting for spending.
What goes in one companies "pilot expenses column" might go to a totally different department at another company like "training"

Pilots out on medical, long term disability, family leave, mil leave, union business will all affect those numbers if they are counted as "pilots" but get compensated from a different pool of cash...

All that matters (to the financial types) is this number:

Pilot CASM
2010 Delta Pilot CASM ¢1.07
2010 WN Pilot CASM ¢1.42

The Charts about "competitive advantage/disadvantage" "average pilot salary" etc. are pure management fodder, and help Bill come in as a consultant to get better "labor deals".
You won't see any of those numbers quoted in an Annual or quarterly report because they simply have no bearing on the operation.

Even with augmented crews and guys on disability, to Delta Air Lines, pilots are 32% cheaper than Southwest pilots and our paychecks reflect that difference.

Now here's something for a little perspective 2010 numbers:

CASM was ¢12.55
CASM ex Fuel was ¢8.18
Pilot Portion of CASM ¢1.07

that's the proverbial "drop in the bucket"

Cheers
George

How much you wanna bet? That number is not legit.

I thought the SWA welcome packet to Airtran pilots was a red hot poker and instructions on how to drop your pants and bend over.

That came after the AirTran MEC voted No on the 1st SLI. Warm fuzzies gone.

That's irrelevant. We're not debating the purpose of the SWA welcome packet. We're discussing the data contained in the packet. I know it's hard for you, alfa, but try to focus. Either the numbers presented are accurate, or they are not. From everything I've seen so far (here and elsewhere), those numbers continue to get confirmed time and time again.

The numbers are probably fine. Keep in mind that 166,000 was the average for all pilots. There are lots of SW pilots who fly almost full time in the reserves as a example. Same thing at Delta. There are Delta 767 Captains who will not make 150,000 k this year by choice. There are lots of Delta 767 CA's who will break 250K this year. There are guys who had second business at both airlines. Many consider the airlines there second job. Lots of Delta guys over 60 now flying 20 hours a month. Same at SW I suspect. The number to look at is the difference. Delta was at 142,000 last year on average an SW at 166,000 using company reports. Delta gets 5 percent more in the DC fund not reflected in those numbers and there is a 4 percent raise in 3 months.
The data in those reports is what will be used when you are before the NMB. Not the data from a welcome packet. The numbers come straight from the companies operational reports. Here is a W2 for the last pay period for a 767 Delta CA. Pretax he is at 269,000 with 2 months yet to go. He has not worked that hard but he works smart! Is he the norm, not at all but the norm rarely gets posted.
Payments: - Gross Earnings Pretax Ins and 401K Taxes Deductions Net Pay Direct Deposit Current $15857.69 $321.49 $4416.51 $671.28 $0.00 $10391.75 Year To Date $269936.52 $28486.31 $72234.80 $15263.46 $0.00 $152875.41

Sorry the pay data did not format well but you can read it. I wish I could post a 747 CA's numbers I talked with on the lounge a few days ago. He made the 767 CA look like a piker!

I know that you're trying to ignore me, but $166,000 was not the average for all SWA pilots. You can repeat it all you want, that doesn't mean that it's right. The data that you're using is obviously flawed.

Take a good look at this page:
http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/2...20Analysis.htm

Take a good look at the P-10 data listed, it's obviously wrong, you can't possibly think that it's correct.

TransStats will pick up a revision next week...

After the revision, the correct average wages should be able to be calculated, and it will be higher than $186,000. Matter of fact, my estimation is at around $193,000 per year average for all SWA pilots including those with their own business, those in the reserves, blah blah blah.

I'll get to total compensation later.

Thanks Luv. Sailing isn't interested in questioning the accuracy of pro-management data. As it stands now, both pilot groups are compensated almost identically.

For every 1 guy like these, there are 25 + FO's, sitting reserve (not by choice), on the hook for 18 days of work per month, for 70 hours pay - month, after month, after month...

I'm wondering how it would be possible for the SWA data to be off by that much, given the way the data is collected. Is it being inferred here that Southwest lied on their BTS P10 form?

enough about who gets more,,,,,,what does this profit say for our share checks? someone said earlier half. Is that close you think?

I'm sure that'll be the next line. SWA lied in order to lowball Delta's pilot negotiations. SWA is coming to ATL. SWA is undercutting our fares. SWA is buying pizza for ATC. SWA is killing kittens...

Let me think here - roughly the difference between average compensation at SWA vs Delta is $193,000/$142,000. By my estimates, Delta's avg pay in ALL aircraft has to increase 36% to equal SWA wages. I have no idea what that means for narrow body rates, but I am estimating that it has to be around a 50% raise just to equal SWA wages.

You want real numbers, I'm about to give you enough to make your eyes water...for free. Why the heck can't you guys gather this information yourself when there are millions of dollars in compensation at stake? Profit sharing? Yougottabekiddinme.

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...5x0cYK_yd0Qf7D

I'm not baiting you, nor am I Southwest bashing. I really want to know.

For what it's worth, I'm glad that you guys were able to keep your pay rates when much of the rest of the industry collapsed over the last decade. Because of Southwest, we have a point of reference for recovering our contract.

As for Southwest coming to ATL, that's not even on my radar. When Southwest starts flying from New York to Prague and Venice, then I may take notice.

I'm having trouble with you saying one thing, and a government form saying something else. Why are the numbers so different?

Sorry, got carried away. I assumed you were flamebaiting. Personal flaw on my part.

Long and short, huge error in SWA 2010 Part 10 submission. Looks to me like they had counted flight attendant management numbers with pilots, along with another weird change. In order for the submitted number to be correct, we would have had to grown by 15% in 2010. I don't think that we've ever managed that in 40 years and we most certainly didn't do it without adding a single pilot to the seniority list. All of our management pilots are already on our seniority list, as are our medical and military leave types. My personal suspicions are that it could have been a move to lessen an apparent increase in SWA management compensation, but that's a topic for another thread.

I just don't know yet how the total compensation numbers changed. If they included the other workgroup's compensation with pilot compensation, then the avg SWA will be over my $193,000 estimate. If they only erred on the pilot numbers side, it should be around $193,000.

How it happened, I don't know. Been trying all day. I am serious, there will be a major revision that shows up in the numbers next week.

No sweat--

My reason for being concerned is that we have to go into negotiations with hard data, rather than anecdotal evidence. By any metrics out there, we're due a large raise. The data, among other things, will determine the size of that raise.

I would hope that DALPA is talking to SWAPA. Maybe they're cooperating. Avg W-2's are an easy metric, the rest gets complicated because we seem to have different paradigms on a lot of issues.

I would hope so, too. FWIW, I've tried to understand your pay system, but it's still clear as mud to me. We're left with searching for a metric by which to compare vastly different contracts. Are W2s a good metric? I'm not sure.

So far, Georgetg's method of comparison (PCASM)is the best ammunition that I've seen.

LJ,

There was a guy on our DALPA Forum who took the initiative to call your SWAPA President and discuss this pay issue. Your guy was adamant that the numbers stated in your Air Tran welcome packet are absolutely accurate. He also said that DPA had contacted SWAPA, but ALPA had not.

Like you said, with such an important contract and so much ground needed to be made up for us, I can't for the life of me understand why DALPA wouldn't be all over this! Instead, they try to sweep it under the rug and we get big DALPA supporters like Sailingfun and Alfa Romeo trying to dispute SWAPA's data and tout the MIT/government data source. Something is rotten in Denmark (actually, Herndon and Virginia Ave) and it doesn't bode well for our upcoming negotiations. :(

BTW, thank you for coming here and attempting to set the record straight. You are my new BFF! :D

I think you're probably right. I would guess that when the new numbers are released though, SWA will probably be able to show more productivity (ASM's) per pilot. Of course, Delta has larger aircraft and longer stage-length, so maybe that number will be offset. I would think that the ideal metric for DALPA would be CASM for narrow body aircraft. If SWA pilots are more productive in ASM's per pilot for narrow bodies, then the CASM number would still understate the benefits and additional costs that are in the Form 41 data.

Ideal for Delta pilots would be stage-adjusted narrow-body total cockpit cost per available seat mile.

I am way too spring-loaded into a defensive position on here.:o

The funny part about it is that you can actually still call SWA and talk to the person who is in charge of submitting Form 41 data, even without identifying yourself.

LJ,

Can't imagine why you'd be defensive with some of attacks you've been exposed to. :)

We get involved in your threads/forums and appreciate your being involved in ours because information about your contract, scope, pay, benefits, etc. is critical to us (DALPA) getting ready to negotiate the first non-BK legacy contract in over 10 years. For us, this is a critical contract to our financial future and we can't always rely on the union to give us all the information we need to make an informed decision.

Thanks for taking the time to contribute.

No, that was the alpa welcome packet to the air tran pilots.:p

How anyone can defend alpa (even though not stated), and mention what is going on with airtran/ swa, is truly beyond belief.

Why on earth is it so difficult for DALPA to internalize and educate Delta pilots that SWA pilots make an absolute a$$wad load more money than delta pilots with better workrules and scope...forget narrowbody, widebody and international.

I know why, but I still cant figure it out.

There is no valid excuse for the defense of the expectation management.

I loathe the blind shilling. If the job of restoration is too difficult for DALPA they should admit it.

A couple of years ago, the usual suspects on the DALPA forum were pretty much out in the open with their assertion that the kind of numbers necessary for restoration are "not realistic" for us to achieve. Now, they are a little more subtle about it. But it is in effect a tacit admission that they believe restoration is unachievable. They just have more severe political consequences now if they come out and say it in so many words.

Haven't they already? I mean not directly, but in form of actions.

Restoration, however deserved, is not the right stratedgy/rhetoric IMO. We should stick to SWA plus reasonable premiums in all areas, SWA pay rates plus reasonable premius for small narrowbody planes and up from there and SWA scope and work rules...plus a reasonable premium.

Its much harder for a Stockholm'd pilot or a manager alike to make the case as to why we can't afford that without accusing or admitting (as the case may be) that its a management talent issue. And that stratedgy plays straight to the NMB's heart. Battle cries for "restoration" because "we deserve it" and back in the glory days you could get a Caddilac for a month's pay and all that not only serve no strategic purpose, it ends up being equal to or less than SWA plus reasonable premiums anyway...especially when you include scope. All flying on 01-01-13 belongs to us and we will end up getting a massive portion of our oursourced flying back and each and every seat the company wishes to have at DCI, AK or in a JV will have to be "paid for" by the company because the baseline is SWA plus reasonable premiums and it is indefensible to say we can't have what a ruthless industry dominant competitor has.

Preach on sister, but I somehow doubt that management could give a rat's patootie what you say or think on this board. You might as well save your energy because come 01-01-13, I'm afraid you're going to rise and shine only to find things as they currently are since that's where management wants them and intends to keep them.

Good luck.

This is exactly correct and what I've been preaching for months now. It is the very best overall strategy we have without any doubt. But I'm afraid our current union has already been badly compromised in some fashion by management and our union's leaders have a strong incentive to give management what THEY want.

We will never see the survey results. We will never see the opener. We will never even see a summary of the opener. We will never see a transcript of our forced negotiations with the unions of our direct regional competitors over OUR scope language.

When we see our incredibly weak Tentative Agreement, we will have to vote NO or be happy with being far below every SWA pilot for many years to come. Wish we weren't in this position...but we are.

Carl

This is a forum for active airline pilots only...not cubicle residents wishing they were pilots. Please go away for a while and learn more before you post something this meaningless. Preferably, don't come back until you at least have a pilots license.

Carl

I agree, Gloopy. SWA is the gift that keeps on giving. DALPA just refuses to open the package. :(

It's six of one, half dozen of the other. SWA + "reasonable premiums" is a big chunk of the way toward restoration. Nothing wrong with restoration being our objective, but "SWA+" is the 800 lb. gorilla in terms of effective strategy. Too bad it's not being utilized. :eek:

Good news, it looks like the total number of SWA pilots has finally been corrected on the TransStats site. It was in error by almost 1000 pilots. Actual total for 2010 was 5564, vs the previous reported 6423. The Airline Data Project data that is supposedly from MIT is now officially garbage.

Well what now sailingfun/alfaromeo,etc.? $166,000 average per pilot based on the erroneous total of 6,423 pilots equals 191.600 as an average per SWA pilot per year when divided by the correct number of 5,564 SWA pilots.

This is how far we've got to go just to equal SWAPA's pay scale...not to mention their incredible scope language. DALPA??

Carl

Often disagree with you, O Guru-of-the-Greens,

but I think you're spot-on, here.

Personally, I think some of these old DAL pilots are too far out of touch with what has happened around them. "SWA pilots make more than us? No way!" ... I've heard that exact comment a couple of times when I've talked to my captains about it. Some actually down right didn't believe me.

I think there is systemic denial going on. And of course, I believe some are being paid off by management.

But I can tell you that most of the guys I have flown with are wanting a BIG increase in pay (more than I asked for in the survey). Many of them mentioned scope too. So with that, I feel somewhat positive going forward.

Fatboy, you forget who your collective bargaining agent is. You wont see the survey results. Everything will take place out of your view.

Umm, He's busy standing by for his commuter flight. It's a choice you know!:rolleyes: