we will have a national seniority list just as soon as the US nationalizes all of the airlines. failing that, a proposed "national" union is a dream that won't, can't happen. a national pay scale is something that won't, can't happen. ALPA is an association of unions, not a national union. each MEC is relatively independent, there is no one from a different airline working in my MEC office. What ALPA is, is a way to pool $$ industry wide for a support system, a way to have one phone number for the politicians to call, a way to allow a majority of pilots to vote on the issues that concern us politically and have the ALPA PAC work towards those goals, a way to be able to spread the cost of decent lawyers and accountants and insurance specialists vs your MEC going out and trying to hire folks as needed.

If you only believe in democracy when your own issue wins, then, you don't truly believe in democracy.
I was deeply upset with my fellow americans who voted for an individual who lacked integrity, and apparently didn't even know what the definition of is, is. But I didn't pack up the RV and move to Canada. Because I believe in Democracy, even when the issue doesn't go my way.

 

who says you need a national seniority list? you seniority list is and should be kept within that airline.
what you need is alpa to stop acting like a loose association of different companies pilots
when one company refuses to go to work, every other company honors it

 

And "everyone" not going to work would be legal under what section of the RLA?

 

Or is it the folks flying the 1900 and Metros single pilot?

 

do you really think there going to throw thousands of pilots into jail?
when NYC metro workers went on strike none of them went to jail..they are a transportation based group arent they?

 

In my opinion, this is a great post (along with several of the others) because it relates to the real economic questions that divide us. Unlike the truck drivers, electricians, and almost every other unionized workforce out there, the long period of government protectionism ("regulation") enabled pilots to create wage differentials based on "seniority" that have no economic basis. Thus, a "junior" person who is flying 6 legs a day on a regional jet for $60K, can and will be glad to take the $250K job of a "senior" pilot at a "major" when the seat comes open during a strike. The economic and working differentials are so great that no amount of "fraternally yours" can stop the encroachment.

This is why furloughed second officers at CAL grabbed up captain positions very quickly when the strike went down. The same exact dynamics occurred just recently at the other end of the age spectrum: The Delta pilots who retired early ( age 52+) to protect their lump sum represented a serious threat to the working pilots. The "younger" pilots knew that the retirees would return to the cockpit en mass if they struck. Thus...they were paralyzed and forced to turn their lives (and pensions) over to management and the courts.

One Delta pilot who was forced to retire at 53 felt so betrayed by ALPA that he told me that if FedEx went on strike he would be the first one knocking on the door looking for a job. This is the same exact justification that occurred at CAL when the 450 Braniff pilots crossed our picket line. Not one thing has changed in 25 years.

You guys have illuminated a good number of real issues that the profession has failed to deal with as the result of poor leadership AND poor followership. This is one of the best threads I have seen regarding meaningful strategic issues. The biggest lesson for me over the years has been that you cannot just say "unity", and expect it to appear. This is archaic, "regulated" thinking. You have to create an economic system that causes us to have similar perspectives on the issues.

P.S. The "Longevity" pay scale at FedEx is now at 15 years. I agree with hatetobreakit2u; I do not see any economic justification for this. The scale should probably top out at around five years max. Vast longevity differentials divide us, they do not unite us. Incremental raises should come in the body of the contract, not in longevity. If we keep pushing up longevity rates, we will have senior second officers getting paid more than junior captains. Think about it. More later...

 

This is an awesome thread. But...
Can anyone that is promoting a national "seniority list" actually see a way of working it out, making it happen? I can't, I wouldn't even support the idea. I believe that rjlavender (presumably Bob?) has stated the core of the problem perfectly - a lack of an economic system that could allow similar perspectives and unity. But what do I know. As has been pointed out in the past, I don't work for a major, wasn't born long enough ago, and just drive a sled through the mountains with 1 mile vis in the bush.

Peace brothers

 

But the RLA doesn't apply to them. You want to have the ability to walk, get congress to repeal the RLA.

Airline lobbyists will run the majors bankrupt before they let that happen.

 

In my opinion, another great observation. Pilots could have prevented tremendous damage to salaries and pensions had they been unified enough to do something like this. A big difference is that the NYC workers had a leader who was willing to go to jail.

In spite of overwhelming pilot union membership among legacy carriers, pilots cannot muster the courage and solidarity to pull this off. Why? Because they know that they are their "own worst enemy" and that others will line up to fill their seats as soon as they are vacated.

This is where "experience" comes in handy on an open forum. Get this: Frank Lorenzo paid pilots $43,000 per year to cross the picket line and fill the seats of striking captains...they flooded across...many because they legitimately felt that they had been earlier abandoned by their ALPA brethren. Today, many pilots at legacy carriers are now working for the equivalent of $43,000 per year (or close, considering inflation since 1983) because of the lesson learned back then: The guy in the right seat or at the regionals, etc. will take "my" job at the first opportunity. Thus, pilots are paralyzed from acting. And management knows it.

Continued membership in ALPA is prolonging the problem. The Association has become an immoveable political beauracracy like any other--it has perfected the art of deluding its constituency into thinking it is the only game in town, but it is quite powerless. ALPA is now largely dependent on the benevolence of corporate executives to make any gains. Furthermore, it maintains a token LEC system that is incapable of solving the strategic issues that we are discussing on this board. Long range thinkers are totally prevented from injecting solutions. The process has to be created anew from the "outside," just as the Founding Fathers did in creating this country, and just as the Change to Win group is doing in its attempt to revitalize unionism.

I hope that everyone will think about this again: We have the potential and the justification to shut down the entire nation, not just NYC. But, we cannot pull off even one strike over the most crucial issues.

The evidence that I see indicates that membership in ALPA means nothing in terms unity. I think it is time for a big change.

Bob

P.S. Does anyone believe that Duane Woerth would risk going to jail on behalf of his membership? Of course not. He knows that someone else would grab his seat as soon as he was outta sight. And that is no joke.

 

Yes, this awesome and fun (and I get up early so that this does not interfere with my other responsibilities).

Philosophically, I do not oppose a national seniority list. Many unions have the equivalent of this in their "union hall" system. The electricians are frequently hired on a "first-in, first-out" basis wherein once they finish with a job, they go to the union hall to wait for the next. Seniority means little. Even the most senior worker goes to the back of the line and waits to be called. It works for them.

Technically speaking, it would be difficult to implement such a system among pilots right now because they must be trained under the certificate of each airline.

More importantly, though, you have to believe that a profession that systematically endorses A, B, and C pay scales that disadvantages the junior pilots, and an Age 60 limitation that disadvantages the older ones, is not going tolerate a system that permits a laid-off pilot from assuming a position senior to one who is working, whether it be on the basis of experience, seniority, or anything else. Although such a system is well-tolerated and, in fact, considered emminently fair among the electricians, pilots are, nowhere close to having that level of social maturity.

That is the purpose of this thread: To toss around ideas about systematically fixing our antiquated and, in my opinion, destructive policies.

Yes! We have an internal economic system that prevents a common perspective on the issues. That is why it is so easy for managment to divide and conquer us, and we fall for their solicitations every time.

If I could capture the imagination and energy of some of the flamers on this board, I would love to turn them loose on ALPA to get this stuff fixed. If you will notice, some of them actually identify the same problems as I do; they just think that ALPA can fix them. I have 28 years of experience that says it can't.

Bob