Once again. At FDX rjlavender has NEVER run for any MEC/LEC position. Nor has he served on any committees, to my knowledge. Instead, he has spent inordinate amounts of time and energy espousing "Lyndon Larouche" style solutions to what he perceives as major problems within the industry. Here's one of rjl's proposals for "natural unity": Instead of having a 12 or 15 year longevity ladder. He once proposed a FOUR YEAR ladder. Can you imagine FDX (or any company) being willing to pay their top rate in all seats after only four years on the property. It's so ridiculous. BTW, that 15 year ladder at FDX was unilaterally imposed by management in 1995 after we entered self-help. How many VLT/DRF trips did you fly back then?

Bob, what exactly is this "Age 60 train wreck" at FDX? All I see are a bunch of old men sleeping in their straps at the F/E position.

 

Maybe ALPA should develop a WHOLE NEW SYSTEM of performance evaluation for pilots. Implement it NATIONALLY. A 15 year Part 121 CA should get 15 year Part 121 pay at ALL Airlines. Or should he? What if all the flying one CA does VMC and the other 15 year CA does all Hard IFR flying? Why doesn't ALPA work on that???? It's impossible. ALPA can't even make it happen. ALPA is struggling to exist.

If Jerry Atkins, CEO of SkyWest Airlines quit today and went to work for another airline, would he get paid $19.02/hr.? Why or Why not? He wouldn't, too much experience. Worth way more than $19.02/hr. But because the way the SENORITY system works in airlines (Pilots are commodities) each will always go to the bottom of the list. So . . . . .

ALPA should be focusing their efforts on a FAIR compensation for SKILL LEVEL across ALL AIRLINES. (But the question is HOW to measure skill? . . . # of greased landings in 30 kt. cross wind?, no accidents, emergencies, best on-time performance, etc. )The seniority list becomes a non-factor and the ABILITY/SKILL-SET factor becomes the goal. This is the way the rest of the world works. So, if a seven year CA leaves SKYW to work as an FO for SWA (he/she) should get seven year pay scale. (Totally unrealistic I know). The problem is, that even ALPA can't make this happen (Evaluating pilots on SKILL/ABILITY-the agrument for their existence) so they employ unsubstantiated scare tactics that appeal to the lowest common denominator, in order to justify their place. Higher Pay and Job security. What else do they have to fall back on? (I'm not sure)

Maybe the right to strike? But even that can't happen. Just look at what the courts are saying in regard to the NWA Flight attendants, MESABA pilots, and COMAIR pilots. Even ALPA can't get it's own pilots to strike because the Government steps in. WHY? Because the airlines represent a major fiscal percentage to the US economy.

So what again are the reasons for ALPA. 1) Job Security and 2) Higher Pay. Seems to me that any logical person, working ANY job, skilled or unskilled, would want those two things. Sooooo . . . . . if that's that case, than OUR WHOLE country should be UNIONIZED. So why is it not? Because it's a free market. If SKYW pilots decided to stop flying today because of pay (Don't need ALPA to do this) I'm sure that management would take a quick ear to the pilot group. There would also be all sorts of cost reductions, eliminated routes, delayed maintenance, etc . . . .

As long as there are pilots willing to work on the cheap, low pay will continue. However, some things are slowly changing at SKYW due to the free market economy.

1) I believe SKYW DID NOT pay you while in training: NOW THEY DO
2) SKYW didn't buy new hires uniforms: NOW THEY DO
3) SKYW didn't offer flight attendants an $800 bonus for sticking around after they were hired and went through training: NOW THEY DO
4) SKYW never had Low Hiring Minimums: NOW THEY DO
5) SKYW never had a comprehensive retirement and benefits package: NOW THEY DO

I am sure there are many more, but these are just some of the things that indicate to me that there is a quality EMPLOYEE shortage. WHY? People are less interested in working in the aviation field because greater opportunities exist elsewhere or at other airlines. Private pilot starts in the last 20 years are down 50%. Of those starts only 40% ever get their PVT rating, and of 40% only 16% go for additional ratings. Aviation is not breeding it's future. Eventually, in order for airlines to exist, they will have to pay more to lure future participants to select an aviation career. And they will. ALPA won't.

I encourage you all to watch the MESABA outcome, ASA outcome, and COMAIR outcome, then decide if having a union is really worth it.

On the regional boards I hear everyone talking about which airline should they work for, based on Lowest minimums, type of aircraft, bases, schedules, pay, friends working there, etc . . . . but no one ever talks about the financial stability of the companies they are going to work for. WHY?

If I were in your shoes I would spend more time evaluating WHAT company one should go to work for based on: FINANCIALS (Income, balance sheet, cash flow), BUSINESS PLAN, GROWTH (Past, current and future), TRACK RECORD OF MANAGEMENT, ON-GOING STRATEGY/TACTICS, EMPLOYEE MORAL, etc.

I feel if ALL pilots did this, only a few airlines would be worthy of sending an application to. (That is assuming that ALL pilots are equal in determining which is the best . . . and of course their are subjective variables when performing this analysis) The weaker airlines, COMAIR, MESABA, and ASA included (ALPA represented) would have to change or go out of business due to market forces.

By (YOU) taking responsibility for YOUR FUTURE, you will be the most happy in whatever EDUCATED choices you make. Even if you think you screwed up a choice/decision, you have the ability to fix it. This way YOU are in charge of your life, NOT your employer.

 

even i agree a national seniority system is stupid where you can jump ship and go to another company with the same number, whats the incentive to work hard for your company to make it suceed, if it fails you just go to another company and bump a number off their line, sounds kinda like communism.

all these majors that are up for new contracts should start working on bringing up the first years pay instead of increasing the 12 years pay.

 

maybe that new guy running for president will see the light

 

[QUOTE=Ellen;68072]
So what again are the reasons for ALPA. 1) Job Security and 2) Higher Pay. Seems to me that any logical person, working ANY job, skilled or unskilled, would want those two things. Sooooo . . . . . if that's that case, than OUR WHOLE country should be UNIONIZED. So why is it not? Because it's a free market. If SKYW pilots decided to stop flying today because of pay (Don't need ALPA to do this) I'm sure that management would take a quick ear to the pilot group. There would also be all sorts of cost reductions, eliminated routes, delayed maintenance, etc . . . .

WORK RULES: Don't know what company you work for but at our airline work rules count. Before our first contract we had to stand a 24 hour reserve window, tell me how you know when to sleep and be rested for a 16 hour duty day? Now it’s a 12 hr window, so you know when to be ready to fly. This is just one of MANY rules that make doing my job better. Just because the rest of the country is buying the non union argument doesn't mean we should. I used to be anti union but pulled my head out of the sand when CEO's and upper management started killing the middle class. Also, spare me the company line they deserve it or the board would not approve it line. The Disney board can't even get rid of their CEO and compare American CEO Pay to the rest of the world. American CEO's make much more than their foreign counterparts! Why is it just the American worker that should have to compete with foreign labor not the CEO's? They is NO WAY to compete with the 3rd world labor such as China, Mexico etc. Most of the management that ran the Airline industry into the hole is still there. Now since they have raped the workers they are getting giant bonuses, explain that. Pensions are deferred compensation due the employee not something they haven’t earned as most would have you to believe. I for one will take ALPA and our contract over the old way at FedEx.

 

What are you trying to say? I have no idea.

 

You asked why would anybody want to belong to a union. WORK RULES

 

hatetobreakit2u,

What you have suggested here has to happen. The gaps have to be filled in order to reduce the internal competitive pressure among similarly-skilled pilots. Otherwise, junior pilots will always be motivated to force the seniors out. This is no way to run a "union." This is not a union.

The ethical imperative that must be established is: Fairness. Pilots who feel that their talents are underappreciated economically will compete with their senior counterparts for better pay and working conditions. On the flip side, when they feel they are treated fairly, economic tensions are reduced (by the way, many of the tension factors are introduced not by management but by the pilots themselves).

For instance, at FedEx, the daytime flyers and the nighttime flyers have a totally different perspective on life. The disparity in fatigue, for instance, is enormous. Yet, everyone receives the same amount of vacation time, as if it didn't matter.

During my presentation to the FedEx MEC last year (prior to my resignation from ALPA), I proposed some solutions to our internal competition. One very simple one was that night flyers should accure vacation time at a faster rate than daytimers. Walla! The "junior" pilots suddenly feel that they are being treated a little more fairly and the immediate result is that the competitive pressure is reduced...a little more unity is created. In fact, you would probably have senior guys bidding nights just to accrue more vacation.

Maybe it was too simple; the MEC was totally uninterested. Nothing, nada, zip. I will try to write more about this a little later but, for now, every pilot should know that there exist good methods by which internal competition is significantly reduced within organizations. They are being employed all of the time by corporations and other entities in order to get their internal houses in order. Despite my nearly endless appeals to ALPA to investigate, including an offer to pay for the airfare and accomodations for one expert in Organizational Behavior to come to Memphis and present before the MEC, they have shut this information out. They are not interested.

Strategic matters such as this cannot be properly explored at the LEC level where nine people who happen to live nearby show up. And, in any case, this is not the time for "democracy." We are in too divided a state. We need strong ethcial leadership that sees the need for change, will investigate the possibilities, and, then, truthfully educate the rank-and-file about the options. Then, it can be turned over to the troops to make a decision on what is best.

Until that process is established, there is no avenue available to move forward on some of the ideas that you have suggested. We must have strategic discussion outside of the established institutions.

Bob

 

So a four year top out is an undesireable outcome?

Or just beyond your ability to imagine?

I'd bet that FDX or any other company would not mind paying thier top rate after only 4 years. If the top rate came down.

It would be easy to make that change cost neutral. You just need some simple math skills.

Assume 50/50 wb and 727 captains, assume everyone makes CA by year 15, everybody's out of the back seat by year 10, a fairly even distribution of seat positions otherwise, and a 30 year career, and FDX can expect to pay about $166 an hour over the course of a career to a pilot.

Do they really care how that money gets divvied up?
Probably not.

But how would life change if FedEx pilots started at $100 got a raise to $125, then to $150 in year 3, and topped at a "mere" $170? That still adds up to about $166 an hour over a 30 year career.

What kind of pressure would it put on other carriers to improve thier pay and conditions?

No, its not ridiculous, just different.

 

You just hit the major nail on the head, robthree. Reducing the differentials does not mean a decrease in average or overall career earnings. You make more at the start of your career and less at the end, but the same overall. It means simply that you reduce the differentials among similarly-skilled pilots and, therefore, the internal competitive pressure at any given point in time. Result: More unified perspectives.

(Hint: It even helps with taxes.)

This is exactly why wide longevity differentials hurt more than they help, and this is precisely why I wrote the article some years ago.

Beautiful!

Bob