Systematically Creating Unity
10-07-2006, 07:04 AM
#1
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 137
Systematically Creating Unity
Anyone who witnesses the dynamics of pilot politics quickly notices that there is little true Unity within the profession. In cases such as with Age 60, we frequently see both younger and “older” pilots accusing each other of greed and mutual insensitivity. The troubling part is that they are both correct. Due to a nearly total void in principled leadership and a failure to change our internal economic relationships with each other, we are now an every-pilot-for-himself profession that calls itself a “democracy.” John Adams said,
Democracy will soon degenerate into an anarchy, such an anarchy that every man will do what is right in his own eyes.
This is exactly where we are and everybody knows it; so, let’s move on and fix it piece by piece. The truth is that we are subject to a grossly out-dated professional economic system that has forced us to be our own worst enemies. This system can easily be changed if pilots are willing to do it.
Seniority
There are a number of strategic policies that must be rethought if we are to ever get out from under the grip of the past. One is “seniority.” Our take on it is unique and destructive. Seniority, as we know it, worked reasonably well when airlines were regulated and non-competitive...but not now. Here is an excerpt from my article, “Learning to Compete Wisely, A Primer in Creating Natural Unity”:
…regardless of how pilots decide to reduce internal competition, their notion of seniority as an economic factor must be altered. Here is why:
In most of the labor world the term “seniority” essentially means “first hired, last fired.” Indeed, in some unionized environments, such as the National Football League, it has virtually no meaning; that is, if you are not good enough to make the team, it does not matter when you were hired. Similarly, in some electrical locals work is allocated on a “first-in, first-out” basis; again, seniority has limited and indirect economic implications. For almost all workers, seniority is a simple political concept that protects against managerial favoritism, and it works well.
However, in the non-competitive airline business where the high-cost leader ruled, “seniority,” especially in the pilot mind, morphed into a form of economic supremacy unknown elsewhere in the commercial world. It came to mean something like, “I got here first so I deserve overwhelming advantage in pay, vacation, working conditions, and everything else. But don’t worry ‘new-hire pilot,’ you will get here someday.” This attitude worked fine in the predictable airline world. But, in the highly competitive, high turnover, networked world, it does not. Many pilots will simply never “get there.” For pilots to use seniority to justify vast economic supremacy these days would be similar to a company using its date of incorporation to justify higher ticket prices. Just as consumers and competitors in the airline marketplace would ignore such a marketing strategy, so will “competing” pilots ultimately ignore seniority as a justification for vast differentials in their marketplace.
None of this is to suggest that everyone should get paid the same; it is to suggest that pilots would be wise to acknowledge that their current system is not rooted in economic reality and never has been. It is a contrived system and the “A, B, and C" pay scales…are proof of that. The test for pilots will be to abandon their cultural, seniority-driven sense of entitlement and create a version of their pay system that reduces intra-profession competition. Fortunately, for now, this process requires mostly a mental adjustment and not a need to reduce average career income. And, the upside for enhancing unity and negotiating strength is significant.”
There is no rational economic reason for creating such things such as A, B, and C pay scales which disadvantage junior pilots, and there is no rational reason for supporting an Age 60 rule that disadvantages the older pilots. Yet, we have these things because we have been short-sighted and failed to see the long-term effects on pilot unity.
Our problem is not individual, it is systemic. Pilots are right in claiming that we are greedy. They are wrong in believing that it cannot be fixed. We just need to focus on what works in this day and time, and forget about what used to work.
Bob
Democracy will soon degenerate into an anarchy, such an anarchy that every man will do what is right in his own eyes.
This is exactly where we are and everybody knows it; so, let’s move on and fix it piece by piece. The truth is that we are subject to a grossly out-dated professional economic system that has forced us to be our own worst enemies. This system can easily be changed if pilots are willing to do it.
Seniority
There are a number of strategic policies that must be rethought if we are to ever get out from under the grip of the past. One is “seniority.” Our take on it is unique and destructive. Seniority, as we know it, worked reasonably well when airlines were regulated and non-competitive...but not now. Here is an excerpt from my article, “Learning to Compete Wisely, A Primer in Creating Natural Unity”:
…regardless of how pilots decide to reduce internal competition, their notion of seniority as an economic factor must be altered. Here is why:
In most of the labor world the term “seniority” essentially means “first hired, last fired.” Indeed, in some unionized environments, such as the National Football League, it has virtually no meaning; that is, if you are not good enough to make the team, it does not matter when you were hired. Similarly, in some electrical locals work is allocated on a “first-in, first-out” basis; again, seniority has limited and indirect economic implications. For almost all workers, seniority is a simple political concept that protects against managerial favoritism, and it works well.
However, in the non-competitive airline business where the high-cost leader ruled, “seniority,” especially in the pilot mind, morphed into a form of economic supremacy unknown elsewhere in the commercial world. It came to mean something like, “I got here first so I deserve overwhelming advantage in pay, vacation, working conditions, and everything else. But don’t worry ‘new-hire pilot,’ you will get here someday.” This attitude worked fine in the predictable airline world. But, in the highly competitive, high turnover, networked world, it does not. Many pilots will simply never “get there.” For pilots to use seniority to justify vast economic supremacy these days would be similar to a company using its date of incorporation to justify higher ticket prices. Just as consumers and competitors in the airline marketplace would ignore such a marketing strategy, so will “competing” pilots ultimately ignore seniority as a justification for vast differentials in their marketplace.
None of this is to suggest that everyone should get paid the same; it is to suggest that pilots would be wise to acknowledge that their current system is not rooted in economic reality and never has been. It is a contrived system and the “A, B, and C" pay scales…are proof of that. The test for pilots will be to abandon their cultural, seniority-driven sense of entitlement and create a version of their pay system that reduces intra-profession competition. Fortunately, for now, this process requires mostly a mental adjustment and not a need to reduce average career income. And, the upside for enhancing unity and negotiating strength is significant.”
There is no rational economic reason for creating such things such as A, B, and C pay scales which disadvantage junior pilots, and there is no rational reason for supporting an Age 60 rule that disadvantages the older pilots. Yet, we have these things because we have been short-sighted and failed to see the long-term effects on pilot unity.
Our problem is not individual, it is systemic. Pilots are right in claiming that we are greedy. They are wrong in believing that it cannot be fixed. We just need to focus on what works in this day and time, and forget about what used to work.
Bob
10-07-2006, 07:52 AM
#2
New boss = Old boss
Joined APC: Mar 2005
Position: Ca B737
Posts: 2,762
The seniority system is flawed for sure. Unfortunately, management can not be trusted to promote pilots in a fair way. If they were allowed to promote captains or issue schedules based on "performance," safety would suffer. No doubt. I've been in this industry too long and worked as captain for 5 different airlines. I've seen enough to know that seniority is the ONLY way to run an airline.
That being said, I don't think seniority should be the end all be all. I worked in Europe where all 3 airlines assigned schedules on a rotating basis. Everyone served reserve (about 2 days a month), and everyone flew the bad trips. I liked the system because it instilled "Esprit de Corps." It is much easier to get everyone behind a strike (or any issue) if the working conditions affect everyone similarly. No one lives like a king simply because they got hired a year earlier. I remember jump seating on a Pan Am 747 years ago. All 3 guys had been there for about 25 years yet they had drastically different lifestyles.
That being said, I don't think seniority should be the end all be all. I worked in Europe where all 3 airlines assigned schedules on a rotating basis. Everyone served reserve (about 2 days a month), and everyone flew the bad trips. I liked the system because it instilled "Esprit de Corps." It is much easier to get everyone behind a strike (or any issue) if the working conditions affect everyone similarly. No one lives like a king simply because they got hired a year earlier. I remember jump seating on a Pan Am 747 years ago. All 3 guys had been there for about 25 years yet they had drastically different lifestyles.
10-07-2006, 08:24 AM
#4
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,750
This will sound like an old cliche. Something a politician might say.
But "Today's problems are not being solved by yesterday's solutions".
Seniority is one thing, but there are many other issues which nobody even considered when ALPA matured. The airline business is now highly competitive and deregulation has occured.
ALPA pits airline against airline (or more specifically pilot group against pilot group) by not helping to create a national standard for certain types of flying.
Of course, I don't want everything to be pre-defined, but today's system has problems. We need to address some issues before the race to the bottom goes deeper.
Some suggestions (but only for the purpose of honest debate):
1. Some form of national seniority list and payscale 'suggestions' for size of aircraft and type of flying.
2. Stop protecting pilots whose right to protection should have run out long ago. We all have seen them and we all know they exist in every company.
3. Understand the so-called "regional" airlines serve a vastly different mission than they did as recently as 10 years ago. What is "regional" anyway? Ninety-seat aircraft on 1500 mile missions is not really all that "regional". We need to move on from these types of labels and redefine our industry.
4. Not allow 16-hour duty days under any circumstance. Ever.
I could go on, but I think you guys get my point.
I want to be pro-union, and I am an ALPA member in good standing, but the way things are today we are not addressing the future of the industry, rather we are putting out fires as they pop up. We need to be pro-active and create our own world for tomorrow or the companies will be creating it for us.
Just my $.02
But "Today's problems are not being solved by yesterday's solutions".
Seniority is one thing, but there are many other issues which nobody even considered when ALPA matured. The airline business is now highly competitive and deregulation has occured.
ALPA pits airline against airline (or more specifically pilot group against pilot group) by not helping to create a national standard for certain types of flying.
Of course, I don't want everything to be pre-defined, but today's system has problems. We need to address some issues before the race to the bottom goes deeper.
Some suggestions (but only for the purpose of honest debate):
1. Some form of national seniority list and payscale 'suggestions' for size of aircraft and type of flying.
2. Stop protecting pilots whose right to protection should have run out long ago. We all have seen them and we all know they exist in every company.
3. Understand the so-called "regional" airlines serve a vastly different mission than they did as recently as 10 years ago. What is "regional" anyway? Ninety-seat aircraft on 1500 mile missions is not really all that "regional". We need to move on from these types of labels and redefine our industry.
4. Not allow 16-hour duty days under any circumstance. Ever.
I could go on, but I think you guys get my point.
I want to be pro-union, and I am an ALPA member in good standing, but the way things are today we are not addressing the future of the industry, rather we are putting out fires as they pop up. We need to be pro-active and create our own world for tomorrow or the companies will be creating it for us.
Just my $.02
10-07-2006, 08:46 AM
#5
Organizational Learning
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: Directly behind the combiner
Posts: 4,948
Bob,
How's life treating you these days? Are you enjoying the extra money in your paycheck now that you've decided to become an INDEPENDENT CONTRACTOR and not pay dues? How does it feel to be a NON-MEMBER?
Have you decided yet how to spend the signing bonus that ALPA negotiated for you? Are you relieved to know that ALPA has negotiated a healthcare plan that will take care of your sorry self even after retirement?
Pay your dues, then I'll read your stuff.
Until then -- go talk to yourself in the mirror.
.
How's life treating you these days? Are you enjoying the extra money in your paycheck now that you've decided to become an INDEPENDENT CONTRACTOR and not pay dues? How does it feel to be a NON-MEMBER?
Have you decided yet how to spend the signing bonus that ALPA negotiated for you? Are you relieved to know that ALPA has negotiated a healthcare plan that will take care of your sorry self even after retirement?
Pay your dues, then I'll read your stuff.
Until then -- go talk to yourself in the mirror.
.
10-07-2006, 10:40 AM
#6
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,273
Seniority is not what is killing us, it is necessary in a business where objective treatment at the hands of managers would be impossible.
Longevity is the real problem...worked great back in the day because most americans, piots included, planned on spending their entire career at one company. That is no longer the expectation, and furthermore unscrupulous business leaders have figured out how to leverage longevity to their advantage...
Hire a bunch of low-longevity (and low-pay) new-hires and use the them to replace a high-longevity workforce at another company. Basically the managers are paying peanuts, but promising much more later...but we all know what those promises are worth, especially at the regional level.
The only solution is to eliminate longevity-based pay scales, remove the incentive to replace established pilots (with families and mortgages) with new-hire "academy grads" who are willing to live in their airport car in the employee lot.
Here's my bright idea...
1) Establish fixed national standards for equipment pay based on a reasonable economic formula (seats, max gross, range, etc). You get paid a set rate to fly a given plane, and this rate DOES NOT CHANGE based on how long you have been employed. The rate would be higher than today's new-hire rate, and lower than today's 12/20 year rate. The rate would be adjustable for inflation and/or other economic realities.
2) Retain seniority for the assignment of equipment, schedule, domicile, and upgrade...the more senior pilot still makes more money.
3) This would have the added benefit of making entry-level airline jobs more appealing, which would raise the competetive standard and weed out some of the low-quality types. Today there is no such thing as a pilot who is not good enough to be an airline pilot, it's just a matter of how low are you willing to go...SKW and XJet wouldn't hire you? darn. How about Eagle? No Luck? Try mesa...if all else fails...gojets!
4) In order to implement this, there would need to be a phase-in to protect the current senior pilots from losing the payscale they presumably sacrificed for in the past.
This concept would remove longevity from the competetive formula. A veteran pilot can no longer be replaced by someone else just because the new guy is a new-hire...
Longevity is the real problem...worked great back in the day because most americans, piots included, planned on spending their entire career at one company. That is no longer the expectation, and furthermore unscrupulous business leaders have figured out how to leverage longevity to their advantage...
Hire a bunch of low-longevity (and low-pay) new-hires and use the them to replace a high-longevity workforce at another company. Basically the managers are paying peanuts, but promising much more later...but we all know what those promises are worth, especially at the regional level.
The only solution is to eliminate longevity-based pay scales, remove the incentive to replace established pilots (with families and mortgages) with new-hire "academy grads" who are willing to live in their airport car in the employee lot.
Here's my bright idea...
1) Establish fixed national standards for equipment pay based on a reasonable economic formula (seats, max gross, range, etc). You get paid a set rate to fly a given plane, and this rate DOES NOT CHANGE based on how long you have been employed. The rate would be higher than today's new-hire rate, and lower than today's 12/20 year rate. The rate would be adjustable for inflation and/or other economic realities.
2) Retain seniority for the assignment of equipment, schedule, domicile, and upgrade...the more senior pilot still makes more money.
3) This would have the added benefit of making entry-level airline jobs more appealing, which would raise the competetive standard and weed out some of the low-quality types. Today there is no such thing as a pilot who is not good enough to be an airline pilot, it's just a matter of how low are you willing to go...SKW and XJet wouldn't hire you? darn. How about Eagle? No Luck? Try mesa...if all else fails...gojets!
4) In order to implement this, there would need to be a phase-in to protect the current senior pilots from losing the payscale they presumably sacrificed for in the past.
This concept would remove longevity from the competetive formula. A veteran pilot can no longer be replaced by someone else just because the new guy is a new-hire...
10-07-2006, 12:38 PM
#8
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2006
Posts: 137
Originally Posted by mike734
The seniority system is flawed for sure. Unfortunately, management can not be trusted to promote pilots in a fair way. If they were allowed to promote captains or issue schedules based on "performance," safety would suffer. No doubt. I've been in this industry too long and worked as captain for 5 different airlines. I've seen enough to know that seniority is the ONLY way to run an airline.
That being said, I don't think seniority should be the end all be all. I worked in Europe where all 3 airlines assigned schedules on a rotating basis. Everyone served reserve (about 2 days a month), and everyone flew the bad trips. I liked the system because it instilled "Esprit de Corps." It is much easier to get everyone behind a strike (or any issue) if the working conditions affect everyone similarly. No one lives like a king simply because they got hired a year earlier. I remember jump seating on a Pan Am 747 years ago. All 3 guys had been there for about 25 years yet they had drastically different lifestyles.
That being said, I don't think seniority should be the end all be all. I worked in Europe where all 3 airlines assigned schedules on a rotating basis. Everyone served reserve (about 2 days a month), and everyone flew the bad trips. I liked the system because it instilled "Esprit de Corps." It is much easier to get everyone behind a strike (or any issue) if the working conditions affect everyone similarly. No one lives like a king simply because they got hired a year earlier. I remember jump seating on a Pan Am 747 years ago. All 3 guys had been there for about 25 years yet they had drastically different lifestyles.
It is difficult to do on a board like this, but this is the kind of round-table discussion that needs to take place in order define and fix the problems. Yes! to the pilot who commented about "longevity." I have written about it. I think you are very close to the truth. Longevity is an economic function that goes to "experience" where seniority is a political function to protect against management abuse. They have different roles but often get confused. The utility of longevity pay needs to be reconsidered. We have abused it just as we have seniority.
Seniority does have its place, no problem there, but when seniority is used to justify vast differences in pay and working conditions among similarly-skilled pilots, it can create tremendous competition between pilots. Unlike the old days, where the new-hire was the least experienced pilot, today's new-hire might be the most experienced. In any case, he or she is certainly "experienced."
At FedEx, for instance, when you have a senior pilot making $250K and flying 12 days a month, and you have a similarly-skilled "new-hire" flying all nighttime with mininum days off for $70K, there is a tremendous incentive for the new guy to replace his senior counterpart. No amount of union jawboning will change the economic pressure. Management knows this and exploits it every time. This kind of differential permeates our profession. It is the reason that none of the legacy carrier pilots could strike in order to protect their contracts and retirement. Too many of their "brethren" would have filled the empty seats.
This is also exactly why 450 ALPA "brethren" from Braniff crossed our picket line at Continental and took our seats. When the pressure was on, it turned out that there was no real brotherhood. Nothing has changed in the 23 years since.
When I resigned from ALPA last year, along with Bill Berman (36 years ALPA, EAL striker), Ron Coalson (25 yrs), Chuck Henry, Bill Rathbun (both 27 yrs, two year CAL strikers), it was because not one strategic issue has been addressed in the 28 years since deregulation that would rectify the unity problem. These guys paid a dear price that directly enables the FedEx and other pilots to enjoy the lifestyles that they have, yet there is no reciprocity whatsoever. And senior pilots have treated junior pilots the same way whenever they had the opportunity. I am not going to sit around and watch this astonishing dog-eat-dog thing go on any longer, much less pay ALPA to perpetuate it.
Yes, there are many things that need to be systematically corrected other than seniority, and I have addressed many of them in my articles (which ALPA refused to publish). I will try to address several of your specific comments when I have more time because they are quite good.
Bob
Last edited by rjlavender; 10-07-2006 at 01:02 PM.
10-07-2006, 01:29 PM
#9
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Position: Retired 767 Captain
Posts: 548
A nice little discussion, but do any of you think that there is a chance that a national senority system would work? There is no hiring hall in this profession. Anyone who has gone through an airline merger knows that no one (BTW, I`ve gone through three of them) is gonna give up one number if there is any way to prevent it. There is no better system around, so suck it up and deal with it. We were all junior at one time or another. You can`t have my number until I`m done with it.........OK, I`m retired, you can move up now.
10-07-2006, 01:47 PM
#10
Organizational Learning
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: Directly behind the combiner
Posts: 4,948
I know it's tough to be in the minority. People won't do things your way, people won't think like you think, and since it's a democracy, where the majority rules, you have to suck it up.
Or, you can do like Bob Lavender, Bill Berman, Ron Coalson, Chuck Henry, and Bill Rathbun, and you can pick up your marbles and go home. How can you quit the union, and turn around and preach about unity? You don't change the laws of your community, state, or country by quitting and leaving. You get into the process and use it, and change it if you can. You're not going to defect to Canada and try to change US laws from there. What makes you think you can leave the pilots union and then change the views of the majority from outside?
It's such a simple concept - - it boggles my mind that you don't get it.
Figure out how to spend that signing bonus yet?
.
Or, you can do like Bob Lavender, Bill Berman, Ron Coalson, Chuck Henry, and Bill Rathbun, and you can pick up your marbles and go home. How can you quit the union, and turn around and preach about unity? You don't change the laws of your community, state, or country by quitting and leaving. You get into the process and use it, and change it if you can. You're not going to defect to Canada and try to change US laws from there. What makes you think you can leave the pilots union and then change the views of the majority from outside?
It's such a simple concept - - it boggles my mind that you don't get it.
Figure out how to spend that signing bonus yet?
.
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