True. I definitely dress the part, neat, clean, sharp. However, this is not going to get me or us a pay raise.

 

An AA FO told me that TWA was a happening place when he was a 24 year old new hire (either late 80's or early 90's). Said there was lots of young FOs and young flight attendants. He explained some of the Thieves Whores and Alcoholics namesake went back to previous culture, but a lot of the fun atmosphere had to do with it being a company with lots of movement in the seniority system. He didn't speak about how sharp the crews looked in uniform, just about how much he liked his job. He'll be the first to admit times have changed, but still really likes flying airliners despite being a few hundred from the bottom at AA.

The same work rules that applied at TWA in the 90's apply to companies now. Maybe a cruddy economy has people holding onto jobs for far too long, and the lack of movement in seniority lists makes U. S. flag carriers stagnant and dull companies to work for? (Asks the military guy with no airline experience).

 

At least you understood what I was getting at, unlike the other "professionals"on here that just focused on the pay.

 

Then vote no, and be ready to walk away. If we keep voting Yes for pay cuts, management will keep giving them to us.

 

My post said nothing about the way Delta pilots dress.

 

The “SS Self Respect Ship” sailed long, long ago. Look at the wage and benefit concessions without repayment/reinstatement clauses included in agreements. Salaries, benefits, and perks increase for management. And what has happed to the same for airline crews in the US?

There have been many opportunities for pilots as a group, nationwide to take the industry back. But they were held back by the unions… too bad. Perhaps pilots could have taken lessons from unions abroad. They protect their own. OK, you don’t want to look abroad at foreign unions??? then at the non ALPA or Teamster represented airlines.

With each passing day, US carriers are sinking to lower levels. Look around you. Compare the way US crews appear versus foreign crews when operating abroad whether walking in the terminal, or checking into or out of a hotel. Foreign carriers have cabin crew have the grooming and dressing appearance who also know how to perform their job with utmost profession and astuteness. F/A’s rule the roost. They know they can pull EEOC card… thus the attitude and poor performance. As for pilots… you ever see foreign crewmembers walking in the terminal like Beaver Cleaver with a knap sack on their back, sporting a pair of Rockports with ear buds donned listening to their I-Pods?


Oh and the “Get the Message out to the Public” with dog and pony shows of information pickets at airports? Well let’s hear how successful those campaigns have been. I don’t recall any passengers dropping their bags and joining the informational picket line, nor beating their chests demanding better conditions for airline crews.


Management is more concerned with numbers on board their jets versus quality of service or terms and conditions for crews. Prove me wrong. For the most part management realize that their respective carriers are nothing more than low cost carriers ala Ryanair or EZjet. Passengers pay the same posted and hidden fees as true low cost carriers abroad. Passengers pay more than top dollar for crappy food and grog too.


Management are is in tune with that fact that pilots in the US have lost the battle and self respect, thus willing to work for peanuts, unfavorable terms and conditions, with minimal benefits. Management are collecting their high salaries and enjoying their perks, at the cost of an employee’s self respect, or lack thereof.


Bottom line, you all want respect??? Start by respecting your selves… respect colleagues in the industry… respect each other both individually and as a whole.

 

It is clear that you've been around a while, and have a fair amount of wisdom to share but with all due respect, have you tried to get by on regional FO wages in the last few years? Especially the first couple years? Not making money isn't something to just "get over." The little things add up fast. I'll skip the haircut to buy healthier groceries, or make sure I can afford my student loan payment but my longer hair will also be combed and gel-free. I know I wasn't the only FO making a concerted effort to live within his means, and I became particularly good at reducing spending to a minimum. I lived in an area that was cheaper than my base, but required commuting to work, which meant a crash pad or hotel cost due to the schedules we had. When I moved to my base, the cost of living increased. It was a choice I made and was able to make work but never the less there was a trade off either way. I say this more as a response to the "get over it" comment, and not the idea that one's respect or professionalism is somehow connected directly to one's pay.

I wholeheartedly agree that using pay as an excuse is a cop out. If when I was on 1st year pay I still managed to iron a uniform, buff up my shoes once in a while and keep the ipod out of my ears everyone can but it isn't as black and white as you made it out to be. I'll take the time before a trip to iron my uniform, and shine my shoes but if you catch me asking for a ride home after leg 6, on day 4, hour 14, I'm not going to look top notch.

 

My "get over it" comment was aimed at for paying for a haircut. I go to an old gal who charges $10. I always give her a $20. Yes, that's a 100% tip, but she's a nice old lady and tells a good yarn when you are in her chair, and shaves my neck.

Do you think I was never on New Hire pay? Do you think I woke up one day in the left seat of a 777, and never "paid my dues"? You would be sadly mistaken if that's what you think. When I started flying a twin turbo prop at night, I was paid a salary (a flat rate, not by the hours flown) of $150 per week, in 1979. In an average week we flew 25 hours hard time, no such thing as 'credit time' at any part 135 outfit. That's $6 per hour for flying a twin engine turbo prop from Boston to Detroit through JFK, and back, all night.

I checked Tom's Inflation Calculator, that works out to about $517 per week in today's dollars, (about $20/hr.) which, if my math is right, is about $2067/mo. or $24,816 yr. in today's dollars. I know some of the Saab guys probably make less. Still, if you can't afford to cut your hair, get your wife/girlfriend to do it for you.

I lived in my parent's basement the first two years, until I graduated college, no joke, but I was flying every night, 9pm-6am, and going to college every day, 8am-noon, so I wasn't there all that much, just to sleep from 1pm-7pm, get up, drive an hour to BOS, fly to JFK, then to DET, back to JFK, then back to BOS. 4 legs, all night, every night, M-F, weekends off. It was strictly a 'time building' job, not something I wanted to do forever.

I figured as soon as I graduated college I'd get an airline job, but in 1981, when I graduated from UNH, the ATC guys went on strike, all the Majors stopped hiring, and I was looking at flying the Turbo Commode all night, for a long time.

It was only when a C141 guy, who also flew the Lear 23 in the daytime, at the same part 135 co. I was at, told me about the Air Guard, that I started looking at getting into the Air Guard. It took me two more years of tests, inteviews and begging, but I finally got in. Starting pay, 2nd LT. in the Air Force back then (1983) was about $20,000/yr., after all those years of $150/wk. I thought I was rich!

BUT...yeah, no matter where you are flying, the fist few years, the pay sucks, no doubt. And with the stagnation brought on by the Age 65 thing, (which I was opposed to) and all the industry consolodation, it's only gotten worse and there is very little upward movement.

I won't pay for my 19 yr. old son to take flying lessons, I told him if he really wants to do it, he's going to have to pay for it...forever, or join the military and let Uncle pay for it.

 

I hope your not paying for him due to the state of the profession .... right?

 

That's right. After watching all the Majors go through bankruptcy, some more than once, and watching at the DC Politicians applaude it, well, we all know 'the state of our profession' is never going to be what we were looking for when we got into it.

I used to tell people I only took the job for the; 1. Pay, 2. Benefits and 3. Hot Chicks.

All 3 have been drastically reduced via bankruptcy and feline addictions, so...what's left?

I wish I'd kept on flying boxes at night, I might be at UPS today, and I'd be making more money hauling cargo than I do hauling humans.

Oh, and Boxes don't Beoch!