Jetblue Fatigue Study
10-25-2006, 11:27 AM
#1
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Jetblue Fatigue Study
Any thought on how this will turn out...
FAA criticizes JetBlue for pilot-fatigue study
JAMES BERNSTEIN
Newsday
JetBlue Airways Corp. has been reprimanded by the Federal Aviation Administration for allowing pilots to fly more hours than regulations permit in an attempt to study pilot fatigue without permission from high-level FAA officials, the company said Monday.
The airline, one of the nation's leading low-cost carriers, had 29 pilots fly as many as 11 hours a day on more than 50 flights in May 2005 to study alertness, said JetBlue spokeswoman Jenny Dervin. FAA regulations allow pilots to fly no more than eight hours a day.
Passengers were unaware the pilots had been flying longer than regulations allow.
Motion detectors were attached to pilots' wrists. They also used hand-held devices that issued prompts and recorded response speed. A third pilot was always aboard in case of problems, JetBlue said, adding that none came up.
Dervin acknowledged that JetBlue undertook the study without permission from high-level officials at FAA headquarters in Washington. The airline had only the approval of officials at the regional office at Kennedy Airport in New York.
Dervin said there was a "miscommunication" with the FAA. "We believed it was appropriate to get the permission of the local FAA," she said. "We have since discovered it should have gone to headquarters."
The FAA verbally reprimanded the airline, issuing it "a letter of correction," Dervin said. The FAA did not issue any fines or take any other action.
FAA spokeswoman Laura Brown said she had not heard of other carriers conducting similar studies.
All major airlines are looking to cut costs, and expanding the FAA's eight-hour rule might help in that regard, some industry analysts said. Dervin, however, said JetBlue had only "data collection" in mind. "We wanted to find out what the data tells us," Dervin said. "If it tells us pilots should fly only six hours a day, we would listen to the data." JetBlue is having a consultant analyze the data.
Pete Janhunen, a spokesman for the Airline Pilots Association, which represents pilots at most major airlines, said that while pilot fatigue is an important issue, "there are other ways to look at this ... We would not recommend any of our members to participate in a single experiment at a single carrier." JetBlue's pilots are non-union.
Robert W. Mann, an independent airline consultant and analyst, however, said the FAA office at Kennedy should have alerted JetBlue that permission from a higher level at the agency was needed.
FAA criticizes JetBlue for pilot-fatigue study
JAMES BERNSTEIN
Newsday
JetBlue Airways Corp. has been reprimanded by the Federal Aviation Administration for allowing pilots to fly more hours than regulations permit in an attempt to study pilot fatigue without permission from high-level FAA officials, the company said Monday.
The airline, one of the nation's leading low-cost carriers, had 29 pilots fly as many as 11 hours a day on more than 50 flights in May 2005 to study alertness, said JetBlue spokeswoman Jenny Dervin. FAA regulations allow pilots to fly no more than eight hours a day.
Passengers were unaware the pilots had been flying longer than regulations allow.
Motion detectors were attached to pilots' wrists. They also used hand-held devices that issued prompts and recorded response speed. A third pilot was always aboard in case of problems, JetBlue said, adding that none came up.
Dervin acknowledged that JetBlue undertook the study without permission from high-level officials at FAA headquarters in Washington. The airline had only the approval of officials at the regional office at Kennedy Airport in New York.
Dervin said there was a "miscommunication" with the FAA. "We believed it was appropriate to get the permission of the local FAA," she said. "We have since discovered it should have gone to headquarters."
The FAA verbally reprimanded the airline, issuing it "a letter of correction," Dervin said. The FAA did not issue any fines or take any other action.
FAA spokeswoman Laura Brown said she had not heard of other carriers conducting similar studies.
All major airlines are looking to cut costs, and expanding the FAA's eight-hour rule might help in that regard, some industry analysts said. Dervin, however, said JetBlue had only "data collection" in mind. "We wanted to find out what the data tells us," Dervin said. "If it tells us pilots should fly only six hours a day, we would listen to the data." JetBlue is having a consultant analyze the data.
Pete Janhunen, a spokesman for the Airline Pilots Association, which represents pilots at most major airlines, said that while pilot fatigue is an important issue, "there are other ways to look at this ... We would not recommend any of our members to participate in a single experiment at a single carrier." JetBlue's pilots are non-union.
Robert W. Mann, an independent airline consultant and analyst, however, said the FAA office at Kennedy should have alerted JetBlue that permission from a higher level at the agency was needed.
10-25-2006, 11:35 AM
#2
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I think Jetblue just put a monkeywrench in the whole duty time situation...lovely. The FAA is not going to be happy about being kept in the dark about the testing...especially since there were passengers on board.
10-25-2006, 12:37 PM
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Sounds like the regional office screwed the pooch. Nothing like a ****ing contest between a regional office & national.
The FAA is not magnanimous, nor do they tend towards leniency or reason. If the regional office hadn't approved it, I bet the hammer would have been dropped on B6 bigtime. As in monetary fines. As is, the FAA has to cover their six on this one too.
The FAA is not magnanimous, nor do they tend towards leniency or reason. If the regional office hadn't approved it, I bet the hammer would have been dropped on B6 bigtime. As in monetary fines. As is, the FAA has to cover their six on this one too.
10-25-2006, 12:45 PM
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OH NO!!! They flew 11hrs! The worlds going to end! Please, I fly that much fairly regularly when returning on a 91 leg, heck I've flown as much as 15hrs in a day. The 125 company I used to work for could fly for 16hrs a day and often flew more than that if returning on a 91 leg. 135 is allowed 10hrs with 2 pilots I don't see why 121 should be any less.
10-25-2006, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by RedGuy
OH NO!!! They flew 11hrs! The worlds going to end! Please, I fly that much fairly regularly when returning on a 91 leg, heck I've flown as much as 15hrs in a day. The 125 company I used to work for could fly for 16hrs a day and often flew more than that if returning on a 91 leg. 135 is allowed 10hrs with 2 pilots I don't see why 121 should be any less.
10-25-2006, 01:38 PM
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The FAA regs are written in blood. I've flown 18 hour days in the Military. So what? We didn't have passengers paying for transportation in the back either.
They expect and deserve a crew that's rested and sharp. You give one airline 11 hours and they'll all want it. What then? 12? 14? Or the Military standard, 18?
No thanks. The FAA regs are just fine where they are, thank you very much. And B6 should be heavily fined for experimenting with passengers on board. You want to do studies? Hire a sim and put them in there for 12 hours at a crack. Don't do it with Ma and Pa Kettle in the back.
Of course, if you're B6, you sell Ma and Pa's personal information to the highest bidder, so you don't have much respect for them anyway.
They expect and deserve a crew that's rested and sharp. You give one airline 11 hours and they'll all want it. What then? 12? 14? Or the Military standard, 18?
No thanks. The FAA regs are just fine where they are, thank you very much. And B6 should be heavily fined for experimenting with passengers on board. You want to do studies? Hire a sim and put them in there for 12 hours at a crack. Don't do it with Ma and Pa Kettle in the back.
Of course, if you're B6, you sell Ma and Pa's personal information to the highest bidder, so you don't have much respect for them anyway.
10-25-2006, 01:53 PM
#9
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although i dont think anyone should be breaking the time rules,
i wonder why the FAA is more upset about these transcon pilot staring blankly into space answering radio calls, turning a flight director for 12 hours and only shooting 2 approaches with people in the back
they should be more concerned with regional pilots who are on duty 15 hours shooting 7 approaches with no autopilot.
.......cause the FAA is governed by bodybag legislature, i woulda thought the comair crash woulda finally ignited the spark to fix the regional working conditions, but no
i wonder why the FAA is more upset about these transcon pilot staring blankly into space answering radio calls, turning a flight director for 12 hours and only shooting 2 approaches with people in the back
they should be more concerned with regional pilots who are on duty 15 hours shooting 7 approaches with no autopilot.
.......cause the FAA is governed by bodybag legislature, i woulda thought the comair crash woulda finally ignited the spark to fix the regional working conditions, but no
10-25-2006, 02:51 PM
#10
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No freggin way
Last week I had a day that was scheduled at 7:58 PBI-EWR-IAH-MSY. This is all well and good and legal... But that bad part is that we got a little bit of overs PBI-EWR. It then took us 6:50 to go EWR-IAH, and 1:45 of that was on the ground in IAH waiting for a gate. (Complete melt down in IAH). The WX in IAH was trully awful and the worst of it was between IAH and MSY. We sit on the ground for 2 hours trying to get pax boarded and fueled... There were 250 people trying to get on a 737-800 the gate area was chaos.
We then had to work our butts off to get into MSY shooting a non-precision approach (Loc 19) in 30 kt winds with lightning popping all over the place. It was my leg and the approach took a full effort on both the CA and my sides. This was after a 15 hour duty day with 10.5 hours of flight time. At 3:30 in the morning!!!
And you ask me if it is safe to extend the max flying to 10 hours or more.... HECK NO!!!!!!!
The circimstances of that night demanded that the two of us be on the absolute top of our game when we were both honestly dead tired. Now things like this happen in the airlines and it was all completely legal, and the day as planned was safe. But what happends if the FAA approved Transcon turns this year, next year they just raise the standard to 10 hours across the board... It is not safe.
First and Last half hour of a flight has the greatest risk and demand the greatest effort and conentration from the flight crew. After a 10 hour day with weather, delays, and chaos safety is compromised.
We then had to work our butts off to get into MSY shooting a non-precision approach (Loc 19) in 30 kt winds with lightning popping all over the place. It was my leg and the approach took a full effort on both the CA and my sides. This was after a 15 hour duty day with 10.5 hours of flight time. At 3:30 in the morning!!!
And you ask me if it is safe to extend the max flying to 10 hours or more.... HECK NO!!!!!!!
The circimstances of that night demanded that the two of us be on the absolute top of our game when we were both honestly dead tired. Now things like this happen in the airlines and it was all completely legal, and the day as planned was safe. But what happends if the FAA approved Transcon turns this year, next year they just raise the standard to 10 hours across the board... It is not safe.
First and Last half hour of a flight has the greatest risk and demand the greatest effort and conentration from the flight crew. After a 10 hour day with weather, delays, and chaos safety is compromised.
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