Here's why I plan to vote Yes.
05-29-2012 | 12:47 PM
#91
Moderate Moderator
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,681
Likes: 0
From: Curator at Static Display
Delta TA and Post on Same in UAL Forum
(Since many are suggesting using the DAL TA as the baseline for a United Contract, I share the following posted in the United/CAL discussion of your TA):
I have wondered why Delta so quickly reached a tentative TA, when UCH has not.
By legend, in 1200 BC, the Greeks were attacking Troy. They famously used the Trojan Horse to gain access to the city. An excerpt from a book on the fable:
Then Laocoön rushes down eagerly from the heights
of the citadel, to confront them all, a large crowd with him,
and shouts from far off: ‘O unhappy citizens, what madness?
Do you think the enemy’s sailed away? Or do you think
any Greek gift’s free of treachery? Is that Ulysses’s reputation?
Either there are Greeks in hiding, concealed by the wood,
or it’s been built as a machine to use against our walls,
or spy on our homes, or fall on the city from above,
or it hides some other trick: Trojans, don’t trust this horse.
Whatever it is, I’m afraid of Greeks even those bearing gifts.’
Re-written for the DAL TA:
Then Council 20 rushes down eagerly from the heights
of the terminal, to confront them all, a large crowd with him,
and shouts from far off: ‘O unhappy pilots, what madness?
Do you think the CEO's giving it away? Or do you think
any Company-gift’s free of treachery? Is that Anderson’s reputation?
Either there are mainline reductions in hiding, concealed by the Scope,
or it’s been built as a machine to use against our profession,
or spy on our Days Off, or fall on the Duty Day from above,
or it hides some other trick: ALPA, don’t trust this .
Whatever it is, I’m afraid of Business Men, even those bearing gifts.’
I'm leery. I tend to believe "If it seems too good to be true, it isn't."
There are different tactics for defeating one's enemy. There is ovewhelming brute force, and at the opposite end of the spectrum, subterfuge.
I have wondered why Delta so quickly reached a tentative TA, when UCH has not.
By legend, in 1200 BC, the Greeks were attacking Troy. They famously used the Trojan Horse to gain access to the city. An excerpt from a book on the fable:
Then Laocoön rushes down eagerly from the heights
of the citadel, to confront them all, a large crowd with him,
and shouts from far off: ‘O unhappy citizens, what madness?
Do you think the enemy’s sailed away? Or do you think
any Greek gift’s free of treachery? Is that Ulysses’s reputation?
Either there are Greeks in hiding, concealed by the wood,
or it’s been built as a machine to use against our walls,
or spy on our homes, or fall on the city from above,
or it hides some other trick: Trojans, don’t trust this horse.
Whatever it is, I’m afraid of Greeks even those bearing gifts.’
Re-written for the DAL TA:
Then Council 20 rushes down eagerly from the heights
of the terminal, to confront them all, a large crowd with him,
and shouts from far off: ‘O unhappy pilots, what madness?
Do you think the CEO's giving it away? Or do you think
any Company-gift’s free of treachery? Is that Anderson’s reputation?
Either there are mainline reductions in hiding, concealed by the Scope,
or it’s been built as a machine to use against our profession,
or spy on our Days Off, or fall on the Duty Day from above,
or it hides some other trick: ALPA, don’t trust this .
Whatever it is, I’m afraid of Business Men, even those bearing gifts.’
I'm leery. I tend to believe "If it seems too good to be true, it isn't."
There are different tactics for defeating one's enemy. There is ovewhelming brute force, and at the opposite end of the spectrum, subterfuge.
05-29-2012 | 12:54 PM
#92
Keep Calm Chive ON
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,086
Likes: 0
From: Boeing's Plastic Jet Button Pusher - 787
How is it possible that ALPA hasn't paid someone to write an algorithm that allows a guy like me to input his ALPA #, then have the algorithm spit back the delta represented by the TA based on his last year's schedule? Right now, we can't even agree on the data set we're using to make our decision.
<rhetorical>
05-29-2012 | 03:29 PM
#93
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 667
Likes: 0
From: 737n/FO
Right now, I’m voting “Yes.” Here’s my reasoning:
I break this down in terms of pay and scope. First, let’s tackle pay. I’m a 2008 hire 73FO, which means that some months I sit reserve and some months I fly a line. Since I’m bad at math and keep terrible records, I costed out the effect of the TA on a year holding a line and on a year on Reserve in my current seat.
First, Reserve:
+20.7% (pay chart + DCI)
-2% in profit-sharing loss
+ .375% in vacation pay
+.1% per diem
+3.1% Sick Leave, assuming I use all 125 hours
+.1% Distance learning + CQ Training
+8% Reserve pay
TOTAL = +30.375%
Next, Line:
+20.7% (pay chart + DCI)
-2% in profit-sharing loss
+ .375% in vacation pay
+.1% per diem
+3.1% Sick Leave, assuming I use all 125 hours
+.1% Distance learning + CQ Training
+10% as a function of Avg Daily Guarantee. This assumes it applies to 3 trips/month, as it did in March.
TOTAL = +32.375%
Going into negotiations, my minimum was +30% to my total compensation package. This TA meets that.
Now, let’s talk about Scope. As a junior guy, I care about small-bore scope because I don’t want my seat sold out from under me. I care about large-bore scope and the Alaska codeshare because I’d like to move up and I’d like to move to the West Coast.
First, we’ll go with small-bore. I’m not smart enough to understand block hours. I think in terms of seats. This TA puts 70 more 76-seaters in and pulls 125 50-seaters out. That’s a 930-seat subtraction from DCI. I can dig it.
Second, we’ll look at large-bore.
The TA does not change current Int’l JV’s, as near as I can tell.
Under our current agreement, Richard Anderson is not required to negotiate with us prior to entering into any int’l JV. Under the TA, he is. If we don’t come to an agreement, he must accept that Delta flying be 75% of revenue share in any new JV.
The maximum number of DAL seats on any Alaska flight goes from 50% to 30%.
Going into negotiations, it was critical to me that we rein in both small- and large-bore scope. This TA does that.
I’ve been obsessively reading APC for weeks, and I’ve followed the debate with great interest. I think my analysis is accurate, but I invite your criticism.
I break this down in terms of pay and scope. First, let’s tackle pay. I’m a 2008 hire 73FO, which means that some months I sit reserve and some months I fly a line. Since I’m bad at math and keep terrible records, I costed out the effect of the TA on a year holding a line and on a year on Reserve in my current seat.
First, Reserve:
+20.7% (pay chart + DCI)
-2% in profit-sharing loss
+ .375% in vacation pay
+.1% per diem
+3.1% Sick Leave, assuming I use all 125 hours
+.1% Distance learning + CQ Training
+8% Reserve pay
TOTAL = +30.375%
Next, Line:
+20.7% (pay chart + DCI)
-2% in profit-sharing loss
+ .375% in vacation pay
+.1% per diem
+3.1% Sick Leave, assuming I use all 125 hours
+.1% Distance learning + CQ Training
+10% as a function of Avg Daily Guarantee. This assumes it applies to 3 trips/month, as it did in March.
TOTAL = +32.375%
Going into negotiations, my minimum was +30% to my total compensation package. This TA meets that.
Now, let’s talk about Scope. As a junior guy, I care about small-bore scope because I don’t want my seat sold out from under me. I care about large-bore scope and the Alaska codeshare because I’d like to move up and I’d like to move to the West Coast.
First, we’ll go with small-bore. I’m not smart enough to understand block hours. I think in terms of seats. This TA puts 70 more 76-seaters in and pulls 125 50-seaters out. That’s a 930-seat subtraction from DCI. I can dig it.
Second, we’ll look at large-bore.
The TA does not change current Int’l JV’s, as near as I can tell.
Under our current agreement, Richard Anderson is not required to negotiate with us prior to entering into any int’l JV. Under the TA, he is. If we don’t come to an agreement, he must accept that Delta flying be 75% of revenue share in any new JV.
The maximum number of DAL seats on any Alaska flight goes from 50% to 30%.
Going into negotiations, it was critical to me that we rein in both small- and large-bore scope. This TA does that.
I’ve been obsessively reading APC for weeks, and I’ve followed the debate with great interest. I think my analysis is accurate, but I invite your criticism.
You need to redo your math. The per diem increase is from $2.00 to $2.10 which is only 5% (not 10) - which by the way does not even cover the increases in expenses on a trip so to me only makes up for some of the expenses of a trip (unless you're still doing the regional Top Ramen thing to save money). You can't count on using your sick leave in the pay increase calculations - while this in improvement in my benefits I don't count this as a pay increase. I don't count working more as a pay raise (which the new ALV requires whether I want to or not). Profit share is currently approximately 2%/year (unless you think that DAL is magically going to become unprofitable during this TA which is only 3.5 years). The average daily guarantee is not going to apply to enough trips to give you 10% (in fact, in LAX I expect to see a large increase in our red eyes reporting after 2200 which means no change to those trips based on the exception in the new average daily guarantee rule). So, right off the bat you're under 30% - 32 - 4 (loss of profit share for 2014/2015) - 10 (not sure how much the new average daily guarantee will improve trips but I know it's not an additional 10% over 3 years) = 18% - well below your minimum. Feel free to vote how you want but at least get your math right.
05-29-2012 | 03:45 PM
#94
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
Likes: 0
I agree. It's a lot easier to evaluate different viewpoints when you aren't seeing red.
But y'know what bothers me about this particular conversation? Here am I, Joe Bag O'Donuts, trying to calculate the value of this TA. How is it possible that ALPA hasn't paid someone to write an algorithm that allows a guy like me to input his ALPA #, then have the algorithm spit back the delta represented by the TA based on his last year's schedule? Right now, we can't even agree on the data set we're using to make our decision.
But y'know what bothers me about this particular conversation? Here am I, Joe Bag O'Donuts, trying to calculate the value of this TA. How is it possible that ALPA hasn't paid someone to write an algorithm that allows a guy like me to input his ALPA #, then have the algorithm spit back the delta represented by the TA based on his last year's schedule? Right now, we can't even agree on the data set we're using to make our decision.
05-29-2012 | 04:26 PM
#95
Line Holder
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 866
Likes: 11
From: Starboard Side, weekends & holidays.
Nor do I. However, I do have a huge issue with the "good faith reason" clause that essentially allows the company to request verification and medical records basically any time they want to. This is unreasonable by any standard,
05-29-2012 | 05:45 PM
#96
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,890
Likes: 0
From: 737A
The legal standard of "good faith" does not equal "any time they want to."
05-29-2012 | 06:34 PM
#97
The Brown Dot +1
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 7,775
Likes: 0
From: 777B
Frank,
Thank you for sharing your analysis. You say your minimum was 30% of total compensation. But in what time frame is 30% acceptable?
First 20.7%--that is as of 2015.
-2% profit sharing. This may be 0% if Delta doesn’t have a pretax profit.
.1% per diem, you are correct
3.1% sick leave--hopefully you won’t need to use any of it, but even if you did with Delta Pilot’s Mutual Aid (which you pay for every month) and disability you are essentially made whole for a year after sick leave runs out. I would submit that this is not really a pay raise although it is an improvement.
.1% Distance learning and CQ training, you are correct. However I would submit to you that your time is worth the same whether flying an airplane or doing training (as in any other profession). Why should you get 3:45 for a day of CQ while the seat filler sitting next to you gets 5:15?
10% as a function of Avg Daily Guarantee, applying to three trips per month. This could be more than 10% (i.e. the pilots who only fly lax-hawaii). This is actually just a reduction in days required to reach guarantee. Yes, it is an improvement, and long overdue. However, in your case in March, you would not have made more money, just worked less days to reach your monthly hours. This affects some (and probably most) pilots not at all and some a lot. The lax-hawaii pilots will work 3-5 days less to reach guarantee. This is an improvement in work rules and not a raise.
8% reserve pay. The amount of reserve flying has gone up and down throughout my career. Sometimes months reserves fly nothing and sometimes they fly the max. Don’t be fooled, this is not a raise but the ability of the company to fly you more. Calling this a raise is the same as saying flying 150 hours is a 100% raise. This will affect staffing and keep your captain seat out of your reach, which is a real raise.
Scope: The number of 76 seaters is where you should be looking. These seats are your captain seats, not mine. In my view no 76 seaters should be flown by anyone but Delta pilots.
ALPA seems to like comparing us to Southwest. They compare our 2015 pay rates to Southwest 2011 pay rates. What will Southwest’s rates look like in 2015? I don’t know.
I do know Southwest gets 30 hours pay for 7 days vacation. I do know our DC plan is better than theirs. I do know I would have had stock options at Southwest and I do know I would have been a captain at Southwest 12 years earlier. I do not know, but expect you would either be a captain or nearly so at Southwest. My point is when making comparisons, ensure you are comparing apples to apples.
Is this contract an improvement over what we have now? From what I can see the answer is yes with the possible exception of scope.
But the real question for us should be is it better than we can do if we send it back?
Is the company motivated to close a deal? Did Richard really put his absolute best deal on the table seven months early?
I believe we can do better. I believe the company is motivated for reasons we may or may not know. I believe Richard is way too smart to put his best deal on the table this early.
Sending it back may or may not work out for us. I am willing to take that chance. This deal is just not good enough, especially for the ladies and gentlemen that sit in the cockpit to my right.
Put me down as a no.
M
Thank you for sharing your analysis. You say your minimum was 30% of total compensation. But in what time frame is 30% acceptable?
First 20.7%--that is as of 2015.
-2% profit sharing. This may be 0% if Delta doesn’t have a pretax profit.
.1% per diem, you are correct
3.1% sick leave--hopefully you won’t need to use any of it, but even if you did with Delta Pilot’s Mutual Aid (which you pay for every month) and disability you are essentially made whole for a year after sick leave runs out. I would submit that this is not really a pay raise although it is an improvement.
.1% Distance learning and CQ training, you are correct. However I would submit to you that your time is worth the same whether flying an airplane or doing training (as in any other profession). Why should you get 3:45 for a day of CQ while the seat filler sitting next to you gets 5:15?
10% as a function of Avg Daily Guarantee, applying to three trips per month. This could be more than 10% (i.e. the pilots who only fly lax-hawaii). This is actually just a reduction in days required to reach guarantee. Yes, it is an improvement, and long overdue. However, in your case in March, you would not have made more money, just worked less days to reach your monthly hours. This affects some (and probably most) pilots not at all and some a lot. The lax-hawaii pilots will work 3-5 days less to reach guarantee. This is an improvement in work rules and not a raise.
8% reserve pay. The amount of reserve flying has gone up and down throughout my career. Sometimes months reserves fly nothing and sometimes they fly the max. Don’t be fooled, this is not a raise but the ability of the company to fly you more. Calling this a raise is the same as saying flying 150 hours is a 100% raise. This will affect staffing and keep your captain seat out of your reach, which is a real raise.
Scope: The number of 76 seaters is where you should be looking. These seats are your captain seats, not mine. In my view no 76 seaters should be flown by anyone but Delta pilots.
ALPA seems to like comparing us to Southwest. They compare our 2015 pay rates to Southwest 2011 pay rates. What will Southwest’s rates look like in 2015? I don’t know.
I do know Southwest gets 30 hours pay for 7 days vacation. I do know our DC plan is better than theirs. I do know I would have had stock options at Southwest and I do know I would have been a captain at Southwest 12 years earlier. I do not know, but expect you would either be a captain or nearly so at Southwest. My point is when making comparisons, ensure you are comparing apples to apples.
Is this contract an improvement over what we have now? From what I can see the answer is yes with the possible exception of scope.
But the real question for us should be is it better than we can do if we send it back?
Is the company motivated to close a deal? Did Richard really put his absolute best deal on the table seven months early?
I believe we can do better. I believe the company is motivated for reasons we may or may not know. I believe Richard is way too smart to put his best deal on the table this early.
Sending it back may or may not work out for us. I am willing to take that chance. This deal is just not good enough, especially for the ladies and gentlemen that sit in the cockpit to my right.
Put me down as a no.
M
I have only one observation...SWAs DC % is lower than ours, but their income is much higher for same size and larger aircraft. So, their actual company contribution amount can be significantly higher than ours in dollars.
05-29-2012 | 08:30 PM
#99
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,530
Likes: 0
He don't care. In his world, he'll be gone in 10 years. Where's that pied piper again?
If so, I've got a few extra dollar bills left over for van tips. That's about what the pay bumps amount to in this thing....
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