New flaw in TA scope
05-30-2012 | 11:33 AM
#31
Sho me da money!
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 947
Likes: 0
From: B25, Left
Baja,
I thought the same thing but then I noticed several points. CAL is no longer, like it or not they are UCAL. So the above is conjecture. UCAL scope will not even come close to the capture we have in this agreement. Is it total? not by a longshot. Is it significantly better? The numbers and language speak for them selves. UCAL need 42% pay raise just to match us. They will not get the relief on scope because 50 seaters are dead, that is a fact. Their work rules will add another huge % to the cost in addition to pay. We can do better of course, but how much are we willing to slide backwards for 3 years to get a maybe...
Fact is we have improved and are moving forward. I like our chances with what we have....
I thought the same thing but then I noticed several points. CAL is no longer, like it or not they are UCAL. So the above is conjecture. UCAL scope will not even come close to the capture we have in this agreement. Is it total? not by a longshot. Is it significantly better? The numbers and language speak for them selves. UCAL need 42% pay raise just to match us. They will not get the relief on scope because 50 seaters are dead, that is a fact. Their work rules will add another huge % to the cost in addition to pay. We can do better of course, but how much are we willing to slide backwards for 3 years to get a maybe...
Fact is we have improved and are moving forward. I like our chances with what we have....
05-30-2012 | 11:38 AM
#32
Banned
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 415
Likes: 0
From: Delta Gear Slinger
Playing Devil's advocate here...
Remember, Delta is NOT required to park any 50 seat RJ's if you don't ratify the new TA. Nothing is stopping them from renewing contracts on 50 seat lift and maintaining the fleet at its current size. Just because leases and contracts expire doesn't mean the airplanes go away.
Yes the 50 seat RJ is a not well liked and has a high CASM, but if the company doesn't have alternative lift, they will use what they can get.
I'm not trying to persuade anyone one way or the other on your TA; just pointing out possible scenarios.
Remember, Delta is NOT required to park any 50 seat RJ's if you don't ratify the new TA. Nothing is stopping them from renewing contracts on 50 seat lift and maintaining the fleet at its current size. Just because leases and contracts expire doesn't mean the airplanes go away.
Yes the 50 seat RJ is a not well liked and has a high CASM, but if the company doesn't have alternative lift, they will use what they can get.
I'm not trying to persuade anyone one way or the other on your TA; just pointing out possible scenarios.
05-30-2012 | 11:38 AM
#33
Happy to be here
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 18,563
Likes: 0
From: A-320A
Who says that DALPA won't tighten then "450" noose again in 2015? You know it would be easier to sunset some 70-76's once 2:1 50 swaps are done and the "obligated" big RJ contracts are nearing the end....
I'll take a double, a single, a double, and another double instead of a home run with thre strikeouts any day of the week!
I'll take a double, a single, a double, and another double instead of a home run with thre strikeouts any day of the week!
05-30-2012 | 11:38 AM
#34
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 369
Likes: 0
From: No to large RJs
Thats my vote my risk. I still don't have any sound arguments about what we will have if we do vote it down, am I looking for specifics about what we will gain. It is for me a lot like Moneyball. A Home run TA would be great but that is not what we have to vote on obviously. How can we maximize gains and move forward. That is what it comes down to for me. Scope is not the way I wanted it to play out. But it is an improvement that is clear. It would be better if all flying was brought in house. But that would have been a home run. Time to start loading the bases.
Not what the other teams are doing out there, just look around. Maybe we have to do this different and keep building on all the percentages and getting ahead. Can it be more of everything? Sure. I like it here right now and I like are chances at moving ahead and putting gains in my pocket.
I think we have a very real opportunity at putting an end to the regionals as we know them over the next 10 years. Giving them more large RJs is not going to do it. At a minimum, holding the line will put us on that path. Holding the line is just a walk. Rolling back big RJ scope (<255) would be a base hit. I personally think we are capable of much more. We owe it to ourselves and this industry to fight for jobs at the majors not the minors. Give more kids the opportunity to play in the BIGS.
05-30-2012 | 11:47 AM
#35
Sho me da money!
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 947
Likes: 0
From: B25, Left
No you don't.
How is giving 70 more large RJs a base hit or in any way loading the bases. The more correct analogy is the NC just watched three heaters right down the pooper and sat down without even taking the bat of their shoulder. Coming back to the dugout they are mumbling "I tried my best."
You have to swing the bat for an opportunity to put runs on the board. I'm afraid too many guys like yourself are afraid to take a real hack. You want to settle for a plate appearance. It's the top of the 1st of the Sec. 6 series and we are being talked into conceding by our opposition. Our coach is telling us that this is the best we can do. Really?!?, give up in the top of the first? Say it ain't so DALPA?
I think we have a very real opportunity at putting an end to the regionals as we know them over the next 10 years. Giving them more large RJs is not going to do it. At a minimum, holding the line will put us on that path. Holding the line is just a walk. Rolling back big RJ scope (<255) would be a base hit. I personally think we are capable of much more. We owe it to ourselves and this industry to fight for jobs at the majors not the minors. Give more kids the opportunity to play in the BIGS.
How is giving 70 more large RJs a base hit or in any way loading the bases. The more correct analogy is the NC just watched three heaters right down the pooper and sat down without even taking the bat of their shoulder. Coming back to the dugout they are mumbling "I tried my best."
You have to swing the bat for an opportunity to put runs on the board. I'm afraid too many guys like yourself are afraid to take a real hack. You want to settle for a plate appearance. It's the top of the 1st of the Sec. 6 series and we are being talked into conceding by our opposition. Our coach is telling us that this is the best we can do. Really?!?, give up in the top of the first? Say it ain't so DALPA?
I think we have a very real opportunity at putting an end to the regionals as we know them over the next 10 years. Giving them more large RJs is not going to do it. At a minimum, holding the line will put us on that path. Holding the line is just a walk. Rolling back big RJ scope (<255) would be a base hit. I personally think we are capable of much more. We owe it to ourselves and this industry to fight for jobs at the majors not the minors. Give more kids the opportunity to play in the BIGS.
05-30-2012 | 11:49 AM
#36
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 311
Likes: 0
From: MD88A
T,
Our TA Scope is nothing compared to CAL's current scope.
They have 0 CRJ 700s. DCI operates 82
They have 0 CRJ 900s. DCI operates 101
They have 0 E170s. DCI operates 20
They have 0 E175s. DCI operates 52
They have 275 50 seaters. DCI has how many?
Basically we have more total RJs than CAL, we have 255 more LARGE RJs than CAL. Their scope allows ZERO jets over 50 seats. They do however have 30 Q400s running. I would trade for their scope any day.
Our TA Scope is nothing compared to CAL's current scope.
They have 0 CRJ 700s. DCI operates 82
They have 0 CRJ 900s. DCI operates 101
They have 0 E170s. DCI operates 20
They have 0 E175s. DCI operates 52
They have 275 50 seaters. DCI has how many?
Basically we have more total RJs than CAL, we have 255 more LARGE RJs than CAL. Their scope allows ZERO jets over 50 seats. They do however have 30 Q400s running. I would trade for their scope any day.
05-30-2012 | 11:53 AM
#37
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 4,301
Likes: 2
So. I don't get it, say no....go back to the table and ask for better scope.. They will say "ok" but only a 8% raise over 3 years.... Or say we want a 40% raise. And they say "ok" we want 88 seat scope.. Its a give take... So were is the happy medium???
05-30-2012 | 11:55 AM
#38
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,628
Likes: 15
From: blueJet
The company does have alternate lift. They have already announced the 717s will take over 50-seater routes (and DC-9 routes).
05-30-2012 | 12:03 PM
#39
The Brown Dot +1
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 7,775
Likes: 0
From: 777B
Is that what this TA looks like to you?
I'm seeing a lot of take and not a whole lot of give.
I want a successful company to work for. I want to be successful in my goals as well in my work life. We have been stymied in our progression and compensation. We contribute to our retirement. Ok, so what.
Our company is making big profits and they are projected to grow bigger.
This TA is paltry and panders just enough to hope every demographic passes it.
We are a cost to be managed, factors of production to both our company and our union.
05-30-2012 | 12:06 PM
#40
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 369
Likes: 0
From: No to large RJs
They have already taken 255 large RJs, unlimited 50s, not to mention pay, work rules etc..Our jobs shouldn't be for sale anymore. That should be made clear and it should be the primary mission of our association. Further outsourcing should have never been brought to memrat. We are our own worst enemy as proven by the posts here.
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