Delta TA Passes
07-01-2012 | 12:31 PM
#61
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,026
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From: maddoggy dog
OK.. I will try to go back to the old tsquare and be more civil. But please, while you are vilifying me, look at Bacon Bits' post above and tell me how I should respond to THAT....
Let's talk about your first statement. "The 'logic' of our agreement states that we gave away more large RJs".
This is true, but it is only a small portion of the argument as a whole. The problem here is that many.. including you.. have viewed this as THE only thing that matters and the only thing that should be driving the agreement. So you say that we sold out, or whatever.. on this agreement... Be pragmatic about this.
And I will caveat everything that I say going forward with this statement: I believe we are underpaid.. I believe that the proliferation of RJs is wrong, and the two things frankly suck.
But it is what it is. We all want to go back to a time when we wold make a Cadillac on each trip yada yada yada. That ain't gonna happen folks.. at least not all in one bite. To just say no, and hope that it will is delusional, and self destructive. It doesn't have to be either/or, but to make an all or nothing statement will more than likely end up with nothing. Is THAT what you want?
So where do we want to go, and how do we get there? We cannot just demand, and have any certainty that management is gonna give us what we want.. just because we feel that we deserve it. We do not have that kind of leverage no matter what you think the company can afford. No one can PROVE that. Some leverage can be quantified, some cannot. Whether or not management can "afford" to give us what we deserve is not something we can bank on being a leverable idea.
Back to the RJs. I HATE seeing them in connection colors. Hate it. They SHOULD be DAL liveries. But they aren't. Those airplanes were sold on earlier agreements to the lowest bidders, and they weren't us. So they are gone. I need for you to explain to me how it is that you think we can get them back here with any sort of value attached to them for DAL mainline pilots. Even cocktail napkin math will show you that we cannot fly them for any hourly rate approaching what DCI flies them for.. and even if we COULD, it will be a new hire CA position. Will a 7 year DAL pilot fly captain on those things for $79/hr? Would you? Do you really want to tank pay and retirement, and working conditions for THAT??? Let them go.. and let's get value for what we can. This agreement did just that, and those things are capped. IF the company wants more of them.. they will have to pony up something extraordinary. And FWIW, I will vote no on anything going forward that increases number of seats on RJs... We won here. Big time. OR would you rather go the way of APA? Don't you find it interesting that UCal is demonizing us for capping the RJs AND getting significant pay increases? Why is that? THINK about it....
Sorry for the rambling post. Focus on the end game and not a single move, and I really think you will see that getting wrapped around the axle about RJs will hold us back more than moving us forward.
Let's talk about your first statement. "The 'logic' of our agreement states that we gave away more large RJs".
This is true, but it is only a small portion of the argument as a whole. The problem here is that many.. including you.. have viewed this as THE only thing that matters and the only thing that should be driving the agreement. So you say that we sold out, or whatever.. on this agreement... Be pragmatic about this.
And I will caveat everything that I say going forward with this statement: I believe we are underpaid.. I believe that the proliferation of RJs is wrong, and the two things frankly suck.
But it is what it is. We all want to go back to a time when we wold make a Cadillac on each trip yada yada yada. That ain't gonna happen folks.. at least not all in one bite. To just say no, and hope that it will is delusional, and self destructive. It doesn't have to be either/or, but to make an all or nothing statement will more than likely end up with nothing. Is THAT what you want?
So where do we want to go, and how do we get there? We cannot just demand, and have any certainty that management is gonna give us what we want.. just because we feel that we deserve it. We do not have that kind of leverage no matter what you think the company can afford. No one can PROVE that. Some leverage can be quantified, some cannot. Whether or not management can "afford" to give us what we deserve is not something we can bank on being a leverable idea.
Back to the RJs. I HATE seeing them in connection colors. Hate it. They SHOULD be DAL liveries. But they aren't. Those airplanes were sold on earlier agreements to the lowest bidders, and they weren't us. So they are gone. I need for you to explain to me how it is that you think we can get them back here with any sort of value attached to them for DAL mainline pilots. Even cocktail napkin math will show you that we cannot fly them for any hourly rate approaching what DCI flies them for.. and even if we COULD, it will be a new hire CA position. Will a 7 year DAL pilot fly captain on those things for $79/hr? Would you? Do you really want to tank pay and retirement, and working conditions for THAT??? Let them go.. and let's get value for what we can. This agreement did just that, and those things are capped. IF the company wants more of them.. they will have to pony up something extraordinary. And FWIW, I will vote no on anything going forward that increases number of seats on RJs... We won here. Big time. OR would you rather go the way of APA? Don't you find it interesting that UCal is demonizing us for capping the RJs AND getting significant pay increases? Why is that? THINK about it....
Sorry for the rambling post. Focus on the end game and not a single move, and I really think you will see that getting wrapped around the axle about RJs will hold us back more than moving us forward.
T - great post. Fwiw I was a no then a yes then an uncomfortable no. Went to a road show. Emailed reps. Talked in the lounge to the reps to answer more questions. Watched gold push ER from 20 feet away. Read a ton on here and the other forum. Basically I tried to gather as much info and filter the BS to make an informed decision. It came down to my personal decision I made years ago when mainline united pilots gave me $hit every week on my commute to work. To them I was an rj scumbag that flew the guppy killer. (I really flew a Brasilia but that didn't matter to them). I vowed to hold the line on rj's when I made it to the big show. I completely understand the value brought by reduced 50's and the 717's. It makes sense. I just couldn't swallow more 76 seaters. I don't have a better solution to offer Dalpa. Btw, I am happy to get my raise. I purposely bid reserve for July and I'm was pleasantly surprised to see 8 more hours added to my pay. I just hope these rj's don't come back and bite us in the a$$. Time to move on and enjoy life. Looks like my son is almost finished building his Lego land speeder so it's time to blow it up with some fireworks!
Ps.....Happy Canada Day eh!
Ppss. Your right, bacon can be über rude too. Bacon, quit being a muddy squealing sow!
07-01-2012 | 04:45 PM
#62
Banned
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 623
Likes: 0
From: DAL
My man, you are a widebody captain and it's very clear to me that your "end game" and my "end game" couldn't be farther apart. You're happy to give up as many RJs as necessary to keep you coasting into retirement (and justify it any way you can), and to hell with everyone else. I don't think you have the slightest clue what more large RJs means to junior guys--nor do you care. That's fine, but don't sit there and preach to those you have proven you are perfectly happy to sell down the river.
That's why I have zero respect for your demeaning, patronizing, and self-centered "opinion."
That's why I have zero respect for your demeaning, patronizing, and self-centered "opinion."
07-01-2012 | 05:46 PM
#63
No longer cares
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 12,109
Likes: 0
From: 767er Captain
My man, you are a widebody captain and it's very clear to me that your "end game" and my "end game" couldn't be farther apart. You're happy to give up as many RJs as necessary to keep you coasting into retirement (and justify it any way you can), and to hell with everyone else. I don't think you have the slightest clue what more large RJs means to junior guys--nor do you care. That's fine, but don't sit there and preach to those you have proven you are perfectly happy to sell down the river.
That's why I have zero respect for your demeaning, patronizing, and self-centered "opinion."
That's why I have zero respect for your demeaning, patronizing, and self-centered "opinion."
First, you are assuming that I do not care about scope. Nowhere in any of my posts have I ever said that scope is not important, and that I would sell it for more money. Quite the contrary. This agreement is a huge win for Delta pilots, and it is disproportionately more so for the junior side of the list.. and that includes you. The 717s do NOTHING for me. The RJs do not affect me.. All your assumptions regarding the 50s, 70s and 76s are based totally and completely on a pipe dream.. and that dream is that that flying can be recaptured and brought back to mainline, at anything resembling a reasonable price. So.. maybe in a sense you are right. I am NOT going to take a paycut in order to ensure that YOU have a 76 seat jet to fly around for $50/hour. Sorry, but believe it or not, it is not all about YOU Bacon... You won big in this agreement, and for if that offends you, I am truly sorry.
07-01-2012 | 06:45 PM
#64
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 302
Likes: 0
My man, you are a widebody captain and it's very clear to me that your "end game" and my "end game" couldn't be farther apart. You're happy to give up as many RJs as necessary to keep you coasting into retirement (and justify it any way you can), and to hell with everyone else. I don't think you have the slightest clue what more large RJs means to junior guys--nor do you care. That's fine, but don't sit there and preach to those you have proven you are perfectly happy to sell down the river.
That's why I have zero respect for your demeaning, patronizing, and self-centered "opinion."
That's why I have zero respect for your demeaning, patronizing, and self-centered "opinion."
07-01-2012 | 06:54 PM
#65
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 448
Likes: 0
That character is on a lot of ignore lists...I would recommend not deviating from that path for the light of reason is not nearly bright enough, good luck in whatever path you follow.
07-01-2012 | 06:57 PM
#66
No longer cares
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 12,109
Likes: 0
From: 767er Captain
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