I just don't get it.
10-26-2012, 09:36 AM
#32
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Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,294
Originally Posted by Rudder1
Why does every East pilot forget they were HOURS from liquidation?
If you are HOURS from death, but don't die, are you still dead?
Did you even read the story of how we avoided liquidation that I posted?
10-26-2012, 10:02 AM
#34
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Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,294
Originally Posted by Rudder1
And why did you not liquidate? Oh right THE WEST!
The "west" didn't keep US Airways from liquidating. Actually, if given the choice I would say that 99 out of a 100 would have told Doug to not do the merger. It was the merger, funded by money raised buy the Luth group that saved both airlines. That money was not raised because of the power house that was AWA, but because of the potential of the new merged company. And of the former parts of that new company, which one has performed better since 2005? Try to learn something.
Not a single west pilot shelled out a dime for the merger. Neither did anybody at AWA because they didn't have it! They needed the money raised for the merger too!
10-26-2012, 10:32 AM
#36
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Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,294
Originally Posted by Rudder1
blah blah blah. If it were not for America West Airlines, the Us Airways would have liquidated.
show me a link that disproves that and i will click on it
show me a link that disproves that and i will click on it
How do I disprove that something that didn't happen, would have? Besides, I have not argued that liquidation was not a option and in fact it was probable without a capital infusion. We got that, intertwined with a merger with AWA. So did the west(you?). AWA didn't have the cash to restructure their debt, much less buy another airline. The capital was raised on the plan for a MERGER. And the company that US Airways hired did the raising.
10-26-2012, 10:46 AM
#37
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Joined APC: May 2005
Position: B777/CA retired
Posts: 1,485
R57, thanks for the post on Brucia's view. I had remembered something like that. My question to you, then, if Nicolau got it wrong for 200 or so guys that were recalled between 2005 and 2007, why would that have invalidated the whole award for you guys and leave us totally at loggerheads? Could it be because some of the USAPA leaders are in that group and this directly affected them?
I get what you say about the need for a contract ratified to have the full merger done. But with a SLI accepted, more money would have soothed any ruffled feathers. You can always toss more cash into the equation. It is much, much harder to get the initial seniority list done. That is why it is so important to honor the process. Because it is such an emotional issue it has to get done by a neutral process. Every SLI causes anger and frustration from one side or another, or both. I had always heard that a truely fair arbitration is one where both sides are equally ****ed at the end.
BTW, we flew 747s around the world back in the 90s. I flew to Hawaii in our 180 min ETOPS 757s in December 2005, having gone through ETOPS training in June. We were planning our resumption of Hawaii service long before the merger. We had been doing long haul/international for quite a while, just not as extensively as the East. We did have plans for wide bodies, but since there were no firm orders then those plans did not count. But to say we had no future expectation of flying wide bodies? That's not correct.
But you know, we are just arguing over history here. What counts is how we can move forward and get a joint contract. Or how we can integrate with American should the deal go through. What we need to focus on is getting a MOU done that protects us going into a JCBA with AA, and getting the SLI process done with strict timelines and procedures so that this does not drag on another 7 years.
I get what you say about the need for a contract ratified to have the full merger done. But with a SLI accepted, more money would have soothed any ruffled feathers. You can always toss more cash into the equation. It is much, much harder to get the initial seniority list done. That is why it is so important to honor the process. Because it is such an emotional issue it has to get done by a neutral process. Every SLI causes anger and frustration from one side or another, or both. I had always heard that a truely fair arbitration is one where both sides are equally ****ed at the end.
BTW, we flew 747s around the world back in the 90s. I flew to Hawaii in our 180 min ETOPS 757s in December 2005, having gone through ETOPS training in June. We were planning our resumption of Hawaii service long before the merger. We had been doing long haul/international for quite a while, just not as extensively as the East. We did have plans for wide bodies, but since there were no firm orders then those plans did not count. But to say we had no future expectation of flying wide bodies? That's not correct.
But you know, we are just arguing over history here. What counts is how we can move forward and get a joint contract. Or how we can integrate with American should the deal go through. What we need to focus on is getting a MOU done that protects us going into a JCBA with AA, and getting the SLI process done with strict timelines and procedures so that this does not drag on another 7 years.
10-26-2012, 11:24 AM
#38
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Joined APC: Nov 2011
Position: A320 Capt
Posts: 5,294
Originally Posted by cactusmike
R57, thanks for the post on Brucia's view. I had remembered something like that. My question to you, then, if Nicolau got it wrong for 200 or so guys that were recalled between 2005 and 2007, why would that have invalidated the whole award for you guys and leave us totally at loggerheads? Could it be because some of the USAPA leaders are in that group and this directly affected them?
I get what you say about the need for a contract ratified to have the full merger done. But with a SLI accepted, more money would have soothed any ruffled feathers. You can always toss more cash into the equation. It is much, much harder to get the initial seniority list done. That is why it is so important to honor the process. Because it is such an emotional issue it has to get done by a neutral process. Every SLI causes anger and frustration from one side or another, or both. I had always heard that a truely fair arbitration is one where both sides are equally ****ed at the end.
BTW, we flew 747s around the world back in the 90s. I flew to Hawaii in our 180 min ETOPS 757s in December 2005, having gone through ETOPS training in June. We were planning our resumption of Hawaii service long before the merger. We had been doing long haul/international for quite a while, just not as extensively as the East. We did have plans for wide bodies, but since there were no firm orders then those plans did not count. But to say we had no future expectation of flying wide bodies? That's not correct.
But you know, we are just arguing over history here. What counts is how we can move forward and get a joint contract. Or how we can integrate with American should the deal go through. What we need to focus on is getting a MOU done that protects us going into a JCBA with AA, and getting the SLI process done with strict timelines and procedures so that this does not drag on another 7 years.
I get what you say about the need for a contract ratified to have the full merger done. But with a SLI accepted, more money would have soothed any ruffled feathers. You can always toss more cash into the equation. It is much, much harder to get the initial seniority list done. That is why it is so important to honor the process. Because it is such an emotional issue it has to get done by a neutral process. Every SLI causes anger and frustration from one side or another, or both. I had always heard that a truely fair arbitration is one where both sides are equally ****ed at the end.
BTW, we flew 747s around the world back in the 90s. I flew to Hawaii in our 180 min ETOPS 757s in December 2005, having gone through ETOPS training in June. We were planning our resumption of Hawaii service long before the merger. We had been doing long haul/international for quite a while, just not as extensively as the East. We did have plans for wide bodies, but since there were no firm orders then those plans did not count. But to say we had no future expectation of flying wide bodies? That's not correct.
But you know, we are just arguing over history here. What counts is how we can move forward and get a joint contract. Or how we can integrate with American should the deal go through. What we need to focus on is getting a MOU done that protects us going into a JCBA with AA, and getting the SLI process done with strict timelines and procedures so that this does not drag on another 7 years.
Thanks for the civil and point filled response, not just blah, blah, blah or binding, binding, binding.
It was more like 300+, and had those guys been placed differently, then we all would have moved up on the initial roster, thereby allowing us to capture more of our attrition. The East MEC presentation to the Exec. committee shows how the Nic shifted from east to west very clearly.
I'd always heard that about both sides being equally p.o.ed, but I didn't see that happen here. For the bottom half to two-thirds of your seniority list they remained very close to their relative position on a much larger list with more opportunities. No fences. Huge gains in relative position moving forward. And those are facts, not feelings. Your senior guys (I'm thinking that includes you) got screwed when viewed in the context of what the rest of your list got.
I did not know that you guys had planned the return to Hawaii prior to the merger, I just knew it was announced concurrent with the merger. I'll take you word for that. Nobody can say that someone should not have the expectation to fly X at sometime in their career, heck PI had no wide bodies or real Intl when I got hired. But you can say that the expectation of a west pilot to fly wide bodies from the east coast to Europe was probably pretty far away at best. Just like us flying to Hawaii.
What you are absolutely, 100% correct about is that we are arguing over history. It doesn't matter, it's just that I'm hard headed and when people throw out urban legends as facts, well I just feel compelled to counter them.
I also agree about the MOU and AA. We need to learn from our history. I was thinking the original was pretty good until I actually read it and them the PHX reps voting to not even send it out gave me concern.
When Parker decided whether or not to appeal then we also need to look at our standalone situation. I wish I had an answer to that.
Take care.
10-26-2012, 01:20 PM
#39
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Position: Looking for a right seat!!!
Posts: 44
Originally Posted by cactusmike
But you know, we are just arguing over history here. What counts is how we can move forward and get a joint contract. Or how we can integrate with American should the deal go through. What we need to focus on is getting a MOU done that protects us going into a JCBA with AA, and getting the SLI process done with strict timelines and procedures so that this does not drag on another 7 years.
Your points are well thought out so I will throw this out to you. I currently do not have a dog in the fight, but for someone who is interested in US Airways how do you see this problem ever getting resolved. When I talk to my fellow compadres and tell them that I am interested in US Airways, they look at me like I am crazy to want to get involved in this dispute. What do you or any other US Airways Pilot that is reading this board suggest I say. Is there still any pride in the pilots there or is it all just discontent that I read on this board.
10-26-2012, 01:58 PM
#40
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Joined APC: May 2005
Posts: 1,273
Originally Posted by R57 relay
I think it is because you, like most people, see it as an either-or (that's not a criticism). The Nicolau award or DOH. On a strictly "fair" basis, I don't think either one is.
Originally Posted by R57 relay
But George Nicolau changed all of that. He used the 2007 fleet and seniority list, with one big exception-he kept anyone that was furloughed in 2005 as furloughed status in 2007, even though 300 of them were working and soon the entire furloughed list would be recall.
But, again, I have no dog in this fight. I'm a cargo guy, and I don't even know anybody at either carrier. For both groups sake, I hope you can work something out and get a new contract...
