For those of you who don't know
01-02-2013 | 11:39 AM
#51
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined: Apr 2008
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From: Light Chop
BTW, where do the plethora of DALPA guys on this board stand on this? They can't be happy with this whole Pinnacle thing? Or that LM signed a deal without DALPA?
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Last edited by forgot to bid; 01-02-2013 at 11:58 AM.
01-02-2013 | 12:25 PM
#52
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2010
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Lowlut,
To expand on your point slightly. The Administrative Manual, Section 40, on page 5, has a process which the Delta pilots followed during C2012. We brought our Section 1 proposal to national, conferred with those in the mainline / express system and went to negotiate our contract with ALPA's authority to do so.
The Pinnacle pilots saw no need to comply with the Administrative Manual. They simply did a deal with Delta management.
Ideally, MEC s are required to follow the Constitution and Bylaws and Admin Manual. If they don't the President refuses to sign. If airlines within the mainline / express system want to coordinate for mainline to recover scope, that is a good thing. The rules are set up so that pilots are represented equally and fairly within one powerful union. We can resolve our differences internally and move forward together, in unity, towards a common goal.
The Pinnacle pilots, by their actions, disagree with the intent of the Admin Manual and do not respect the autonomy of the Delta MEC to deal with Delta management.
The inevitable problems with Pinnacle's approach are:
To expand on your point slightly. The Administrative Manual, Section 40, on page 5, has a process which the Delta pilots followed during C2012. We brought our Section 1 proposal to national, conferred with those in the mainline / express system and went to negotiate our contract with ALPA's authority to do so.
The Pinnacle pilots saw no need to comply with the Administrative Manual. They simply did a deal with Delta management.
Ideally, MEC s are required to follow the Constitution and Bylaws and Admin Manual. If they don't the President refuses to sign. If airlines within the mainline / express system want to coordinate for mainline to recover scope, that is a good thing. The rules are set up so that pilots are represented equally and fairly within one powerful union. We can resolve our differences internally and move forward together, in unity, towards a common goal.
The Pinnacle pilots, by their actions, disagree with the intent of the Admin Manual and do not respect the autonomy of the Delta MEC to deal with Delta management.
The inevitable problems with Pinnacle's approach are:
- It violates the Constitution and Bylaws, as well as the Administrative Manual
- It is inevitable that different contracts are going to contradict one another
- It is inevitable that management will use their new found choice to whipsaw pilots
- The different amenable dates on the various contracts will be used by management to preempt each other's bargaining
- The mainline carriers will likely leave ALPA once they figure out their autonomy is threatened. Of course, but then the precedent is already set and the damage already done.
01-02-2013 | 01:11 PM
#53
Moderator
Joined: Oct 2006
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From: B757/767
Dear Fellow Pilots,
How you answer will not affect my "no to pay cuts" vote. I am too old to go back to sitting FO reserve even at a mainline (I am bound to go back to 135 work if the company folds). But it will affect many folks younger than I.
I ask you to declare your support, and give the young folks another reason to say no to pay cuts.
Respectfully,
John Hickman, Colgan Saab 340 CA soon to be Pinnacle 200 FO
How you answer will not affect my "no to pay cuts" vote. I am too old to go back to sitting FO reserve even at a mainline (I am bound to go back to 135 work if the company folds). But it will affect many folks younger than I.
I ask you to declare your support, and give the young folks another reason to say no to pay cuts.
Respectfully,
John Hickman, Colgan Saab 340 CA soon to be Pinnacle 200 FO
Too old to sit reserve in what regard? Pay? Current 1st year pay at DAL is $66 per hour. You'll gross $60K your first year.
01-02-2013 | 01:19 PM
#54
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Joined: Apr 2008
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Pinnacle has been in negotiations for almost a year now. Pinnacle attended the scope meeting as required in the Admin manual, I think that meeting occurred in February or March 2012 (if the date is wrong forgive me, but it was close to that). At that meeting the scope goals were:
- Reduce the share of Delta flying done by DCI carriers
- Increase the share of Delta flying done by mainline pilots
- Provide employment help for pilots who are affected by 1 and 2 above
The Pinnacle agreement complies with the scope goals that we mutually agreed to at that meeting. The admin manual does not require joint negotiations or new meetings every time a new proposal is made. I know that once we had our meeting the next time any other carrier heard about our deal was when we had a TA. Please note that the admin manual gives each MEC the right to negotiate their own deal. That was a provision that Delta pilots insisted on to ensure that we always had control over our own fate. Yes, the DPA talking point is truly just a bunch of hooey.
Take a minute to look at the sunset provisions in the Pinnacle bridge agreement. Those provisions mean that there will be no logical restrictions to what we can negotiate in the future given the commitments that Delta has for financing and CPA flying. No one really thinks that Delta could buy 40 CRJ-900's in 2013-14 and then get rid of them in 2015, right?
In the end the bridge agreement doesn't represent any restrictions on us eliminating all RJ's. If Delta wants to get rid of all CRJ's they will have to buy their way out of numerous CPA and financing agreements. Buying their way out this bridge agreement (remember the sunsets) would represent a teeny, teeny fraction of that cost. Just to put things in perspective, the entire yearly pilot contract for 800 Pinnacle pilots would be less than the cost of a few CRJ-900 aircraft. (no offense intended to Pinnacle pilots, it is just a fact of math)
I understand everyone's concern, I would reread the bridge agreement and try to put those sunset provisions in context of what is reasonably possible to achieve in a short time frame and then decide whether this represents a threat or not. Happy New Year.
01-02-2013 | 02:57 PM
#56
The Brown Dot +1
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 7,775
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From: 777B
The Pinnacle pilots haven't voted on anything yet. And I don't remember anyone asking my opinion when they were negotiating this TA. No one knew until the last minute that Delta mgmt was involved. I hope this doesn't become what I think it is. Are Pinnacle pilots going to be lumped in with the "Comair pilots" or JC who didn't want to give you guys a fair shake at Comair? I've seen a lot of unfortunate fallout from the Comair v Delta fiasco and actually haven't spoken to many Comair folks who supported the Lawson administration. Are all Pinnacle pilots now going to be looked at as the enemy of Delta mainline pilots? I am actually very concerned with the fallout of this. I am not disagreeing with you, Bar, or anything you have said. It is all good, solid information. What worries me is the tone that Pinnacle pilots as a group are doing this to you with malicious intent and now we are going to be the enemy. Trust me, that is the last thing we need at this point. Am I, a Pinnacle pilot, going to be looked at as a problem now? I just don't like where this is going.
Did he actually sign it? I thought it wasn't going to be signed until mid month.
01-02-2013 | 03:44 PM
#57
:-)
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In the end the bridge agreement doesn't represent any restrictions on us eliminating all RJ's. If Delta wants to get rid of all CRJ's they will have to buy their way out of numerous CPA and financing agreements. Buying their way out this bridge agreement (remember the sunsets) would represent a teeny, teeny fraction of that cost. Just to put things in perspective, the entire yearly pilot contract for 800 Pinnacle pilots would be less than the cost of a few CRJ-900 aircraft. (no offense intended to Pinnacle pilots, it is just a fact of math)
01-02-2013 | 03:51 PM
#58
:-)
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Maok sent us all a video message about it, although there were no dramatic camera angle changes like Prater used to do.
01-02-2013 | 04:03 PM
#60
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I am not sure how that is a threat. If Delta merges with 9E then those RJ's will be flown by Delta pilots. Oh the horror.
