Affirmative Nashmd11

CE750

First of all, thank you for the lesson on the use of the term neo-conservative. I will research it further, and modify my use accordingly.

As I stated before reference AA policies. The first requirement is and should be that an individual is qualified! However, it is likely that many qualified applicants are availalbe for a position. I have no problem with a HR department making a decision to hire people so as to reflect the american population. The problem and what we are trying to correct now is because historically this wasn't done.

As far as disadvantaged youth, I couldn't agree with you more, however I don't think that that is the reason for the limited number of minorities we see in the profession. The Black and Hispanic middle class is much larger than many people think. I think it has more to do with the lack of career guidance, inside assistance, and yes still some racism that makes it difficult to reach the goal. The typical black or hispanic person middle class or poor has no outlet ( no uncle, neighbor, friend of a friend of a friend) to assist them in even beginning to know how to become an airline pilot. And certainly no one to guide them through the pitfalls along the way. I believe that the internet has made it much easier in the last 10 years to have access to the guidance that is needed in the profession, hence websites like this one.

As far as women are concerned. Yes I do believe their situation is a bit different and I believe that they will reach parity with the traditional airline pilot groups much sooner than any of the other groups. Hopefully in the not too distant future there will be no need for any form of AA.

Finally, I was afraid when you started this thread that it would descend into a racial, gender slugfest. Fortunately not! Good dialogue, thanks for starting the discussion.

Onfinal

Neocon advocates the elimination of EEOC?
 

If you can call me dude, can I call you son? I've read your posts. I don't have a problem with reading comprehension. It would have been quite impossible for me to read your post and quote you before you hit the SUBMIT button, but that claim is no less fantastic than some of the others you make here:


Absurd.

Do you not see the difference between Affirmative Action and Equal Employment Opportunity legislation?

Let's look at some EEO legislation, beginning with the Act that established the EEOC.

Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964

Did you read that last paragraph carefully?

I'm reading what you write carefully. You're saying that because I advocate the policy that -- let me quote here -- "We hire pilots based on their ability, integrity, and professionalism. Not racial status, or gender." -- I am a neocon, and, therefore, I want to eliminate the above law?

Wrong.

Here's another: The Equal Pay Act of 1963

Eliminate that one? Nope.

How 'bout this one: The Age Discrimination in Employment Act of 1967

Eliminate this one? Nope. Wrong again.

Let's save some time.

Eliminate The Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990, Titles I and V ? Nope.

Eliminate The Rehabilitation Act of 1973 Sections 501 and 505 ? Nope.

Eliminate The Civil Rights Act of 1991 ? Nope.


Now, for the rest of your alphabet. If by MBE, WBE, and DBE you mean Minority Business Enterprise, Women's Business Enterprise, and Minority Business Enterprise, then yes, I'd be in favor of their elimination. Why?

Because they directly contradict the EEOC laws. An employer can't discriminate against a minority, a woman, or the disabled, but they CAN discriminate FOR any of them. That doesn't pass the common sense test.




As far as the EEO laws are concerned, they all recognize injustices, and address them directly. There is no "making believe" that injustices do not occur. Go ahead if you don't believe me, click on the links above and read the text of the laws. Congress recognizes that discrimination based on race is not good, Congress recognizes that discrimination based on gender is harmful, Congress recognizes etc., etc., etc. The claim you make here is simply false.



"puts complete control of hiring practices entirely into the hands of" -- nobody. It does NOT put control in ANYBODY's hands. The laws define unlawful hiring practices. Do you think it would be more fair if the law said hiring decisions must now be made only by blacks, hispanics, women, the elderly, and the disabled? 35 year old white males are prohibited from hiring? Have you really thought this out?


I can hardly believe that President Lyndon Johnson would have said such a thing. In the first place, when he signed the Civil Rights Act of 1964, the country was not yet 200 years old, much less 300. In the second place, the Act did in no way stack the deck in favor of or against minorities. It attempted to enforce the EQUAL treatment of ALL. Go back and read it. Such a quote would be totally out of character for him, but it sounds like something Jesse Jackson would say.




.

Thank God for websites like these. I for one have a dad that has told me not to become a pilot because I'm a minority and I will never reach the ranks of a pilot, he says that I should settle for jobs that fit my ethnicity, and that something’s are just impossible.

I come from poor inner city schools and the whole deal, I'm currently in college and hope to one day reach my goals.

In my high school there were about 500 people graduate out of an entering class of 1000, out of those about 150 were going to go to college, and about 30 of us were actually going to go to a four year college. Out of those 30 half were Caucasian’s that somehow had ended up at a high school in which the majority was a minority.
Out of those 15 no one except me wanted to become a pilot. As you can see, it’s hard to expect to see many minority pilots out there.

I know that this was a little off the subject but I feel it backs up some of your previous comments.

Tony, are you sure you don't want to be a lawyer? :) You would make a formidable adversary in court, after you have confounded your law professors! It would be an honor to have someone like you appear before me in any proceeding!

Your honor, may I approach the bench?


Can we continue this in chambers?



:)




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Although I know it is not a scientific survey the poll results speak volumes.

Shakone:
The number of military pilots has linearly decreased since WWII. I've been a OSO, Officer Selection Officer since the late 90's, and DO NOT attribute this to military discrimination. I was sent to DuPont to take a class on executive recruitment by the National Guard Bureau and have assisted many Guard bases in recruiting minority pilots. I have also worked in hiring pilots at 2 part 121 carriers.
Here's a little secret to all who might be wondering. Because of affirmative action, minority pilots ONLY compete with minority pilots for pilot positions. In a structured selection process, ie all qualifications objective and given numerical and quantitative scores for various criteria, there is almost no difference in the applicants. I've had days when we had 3 excellent minority applicants, but only 2 minority slots. Guess what happens then? One qualified minority goes home. The other instance, 2 minority slots and only 1 excellent applicant, the white guy goes home, but we never hire anyone who doesn't meet minimun requisite qualifications. I'd say the split is 30/70 percent, respectively. The BIG realization we found was that the top applicants careers are usually lack-luster compared to the guy that barely made it. Go figure. The greatest advantage a military minority has is the he'll actually get to know his peers, a great advantage when dealing with racial preconceptions. Truth is, MOST minority pilots actively sought are just not interested in the military when they have the means to avoid having to push through all of the subjective evaluation. Sad because every American should have such an opportunity to realize what a great country we live in and how much we all have in common once you push through the political BS. My personal problem with A/A is that at long as it is present, minorities have to learn to live with the fact that most will think the only reason you got your job was because of your individual demographics. I have an outstanding career and have many black, white, male, female, rich and poor folks who I highly respect and love. I'm going to enjoy this, and though a little juvenile.....I'm still not gonna tell TonyC whether I'm alive or dead:D . I'll let him figure that out while he's counting minorities at the airport.

I used to work for ASA in Atlanta and my wife was a Teacher in a "poor" part of town in a 99% Black school (Riverside Elementary), and I used to come in at her request as a volunanteer on career day in my crappy ASA pilots uniform and hat to give talks (along with the fireman, police, and other professions from dental assistant to Doctor). The saddest things I observed were two things.

- I noticed a dramatic difference between the K-2nd graders and the 3-5th grader in terms of behavior and willingness to learn, listen, and engage in constructive questions... and no! it wasn't the little ones that were hecklers.. sadly it was the older kids who almost all seemed destined for failure with their attitudes.

-Something even more sad was that 99% of those kids didn't even know what my uniform was... they would say Limo driver, or Police man... didn't ever see a pilot or an airplane..

I grew up from infancy to my early teens flying on jets with my family and seeing pilots and wishing I could fly the plane, visiting the cockpit (Back when you could), etc... Yet these kids were TRULY disadvantaged, and by the time they were 8 or 9, were on their way to being at the bottom of the wrung due to a number of factors we will not get into here.

I subsequently began to support OBAP even though I'm not Afro-American because it broke my heart to see these kids with so much potential at their formative years, then turn into borderline thugs and jokers by such a young age as 8.. Most OBAP members I met didn't come from the inner city however, though some likely did; but themselves were usually from middle class families that had instilled the value of school and achievement into them. SO..

I SAY AGAIN; THE PROBLEM LIES IN THE FORMATIVE YEARS... NOT IN AFFIRMATIVE ACTION BEING NEEDED. This is my view. AA is more of a re-payment for 80 years of discrimination if you want to accept it's existence, and does nothing to solve the problem for all of those kids "in the pipe line" for the grown up world.


Anyway.. TonyC, good lawyer work... I'm impressed.

CE750

Again I agree with you. And what you said is right on as far as most of the Black and Hispanic Pilots come out of the Black and Hispanic middle class. I think you would also find this true of the White middle class, and similar situation among the white poor. Really there are two different forces at work here. The American poor - White, Black, Hispanic, Asian, Native American or atherwise have one barrier, that is not really addressed by AA. I think that minority middle class have a different situation that although not a perfect solution provides some solution through AA.

Also, I applaud your support of OBAP. With reasonable and thinking people like yourself, hopefully there will not long be a need for any of these types of discussions.

Onfinal