OK...I'll say to you (again)...this is YOUR issue, not mine. If you have a point to make about unfair hiring practices, prove it.

OK, bud...whatever floats your boat! Could it be that some sweet young thing got the job that you thought you should have had? Is that what's really bugging you?

No one tried to make it one.

Before I answer that, let me say that I'm confused over what you are trying to say in this topic. One one hand, you seem to be pushing the advancement of poor minorities on the basis of their financial status. One the other, you have made an aggressive case that white females are hired over other minorities.

Which is it? Or is it both?

My answer? Hire the best qualified. Give no consideration to financial status. This is a business, not some liberal social engineering theory.

Correct. I do not see any basis in fact that your 'thesis' is valid. It may be...but the monkey is on your back to prove it.

If all else is equal you shouldn't need to give the edge to anyone! You feeling guilty for being born white or something? Fine if you are but don't give away my fair shot a better life because of it.

I guess it's true when they say "we're not a Christian Nation" afterall.. :rolleyes:

Uncle.

That's a perfect example of why AA should be abolished entirely. You shouldn't be hiring for "minority" slots, you should be hiring for PILOT slots.




I got news for ya -- I already know the answer. As soon as you're ready to accept the fact that absolutes do indeed exist, you'll begin to see some more answers, as well. ;)



And when I'm at the airport, I'll be busy keeping a low profile from the TSA and trying to make my life as pleasant as possible. The only counting I might do will be at the check-out of the newstand or food court to ensure I've received the proper change.


Really, though, do you think minorities can be identified based on appearance alone? :confused:




.

I am simply at a standstill in understanding how anyone in their right mind could possibly support AA, and the racial quotas that come along with it. To me it seems like a relic of the past: the very last utilization of institutionalized racism, except the tables have turned.

The truth is guys, America has changed. Widespread racism has been all but wiped out, certainly not completely (racism will never go away, no matter what you do, it's been with humans since out inception), but it has declined enough to do away with the ridiculous, racist programs.

If we continue holding onto this notion of "but for the last 80 years...", we'll never get anywhere! In 100 years will we still be in the same spot? Will the proponents of racist AA policies still be blabbering on about the past? When will we ever reach a threshold of acceptance in their eyes?

The sad and honest truth is, never. They will always hold onto this belief. Playing the "poor disadvantaged" minority angle to guilt opponents into submission. Because the easiest way to have your career ruined is to be branded a "racist"; a term which is frighteningly easy to coin.

The time for the madness to stop is now. Institutionalized racism is and has been over for the last 20 years. Don't let anyone make you feel guilty for admitting it.

And, I've been hearing a lot of complaining about a shortage of black and Hispanic pilots. I'm going to come right out and say it: most blacks aren't interested in aviation! All through highschool, I have not met one -- not one single black who wanted to be a pilot. So I would have to say to you that the airline system is not your problem. The ghetto culture that so many black kids are interned with today is to blame. So you want more black pilots? Fix the root of the problem.

Well this discussion wasn't centered on Blacks specifically, but your comments make me believe that we're not as far along as you imply.

I guess to even begin to consider the validity of your statement, one would need to ask...

1) Where did you go to school?

2) How many black students did you know in a intimate enough way to know their future career plans and dreams?

3) Did you know any other white, hispanic, asian or other students in High School that wanted to be pilots, and if so was it a large enough statistical number to add any validity to your statement?

4) Is the ghetto culture in the black community any different from the "trash" culture in the white community (you know the Cops/Jerry Springer show variety) and what does that have to do with pilots when we've already discussed that most minority pilots as well as white pilots come out of the american middle class.

By the way. when I was in High School I knew several Blacks and Hispanics that wanted to be pilots. Through involvement in CAP, NAI, I could say I've known hundreds. I have several personal friends who are black that are pilots, I've also have been involved with a privately funded program in New Jersey called Eagle Flight where many poorer white, black, and hispanic students are exposed to aviation. Many have gone on to becoming pilots, joining the military in aviation fields, etc. etc. I would say in most college aviation programs you will find they are quite well represented by black students. In fact AOPA's national college representative for the learn to fly program was black?

I'm not sure what the source of your information is for the implications you make in your statement, " most blacks aren't interested in aviation". Well neither are most whites! Your own experience may or may not be consistent with reality.

Onfinal

Perhaps it's not 100% of the debate, but it certainly is the majority.







South Florida, near Miami.






Just about half my graduating class is black. All of my classes have at least 5 black students. One of my best friends was black, and I dated a black gorl for a few months.







Six white kids I knew wanted to be pilots, and one Hispanic. I'm not sure if they actually pursued those ambitions but they're the only ones that expressed interest in the field.





No, they're the same. But the "ghetto" culture is certainly more predominant among backs than "trash" is among whites.

In all my years, I've only met two black kids who weren't into the "G"-scene. Then again, alot of white kids are into it too.





And again, I wasn't saying all blacks wouldn't pursue a career in aviation. Personally, I don't like classifying people into "blacks" and "whites". We're all people. I was simply saying that through my own personal experience, I have seen that black students (at least in my area) show less interest in aviation.

It's not because they're black, it's because of the culture alot born into.

You see more middle-class blacks flying because their parents put a value on education, and didn't let them fall into a "G" mentality. And they also had money! Money is what makes planes fly, and nomatter if you have white, black, or Hispanic parents; if they don't have money, you're going to have a harder time getting into the career field!

I wouldn't be where I am today if my parents didn't have money. Not that it's anything to brag about, it's the the plain truth.





To deny the obvious only goes to show ignorance.

Yeah, maybe I've just been living "outside of reality" for my whole life. :rolleyes:

TonyC:

I'm afraid I have to disagree with those who think you would be an excellent lawyer. Again, you've failed to read the post. Then you went on with a quite lengthy discussion of various civil rights laws that really became quite a bore.

For the second time, Please read and re-read posts before you write. It seems that you're so eager to make your point, that you leave out the opportunity to reflect on what the poster is saying. Certainly we will never come to agreement, or even closer to the middle if we behave in this way. And we won't have a Republic for long if we sanction this behavior.

So many on this thread have attempted to have a stimulating discussion of the topic without allowing it to turn into a slugfest. Please try to respect this by reading, considering, and then posting.

In a nutshell, I spoke about the elimination of programs I said nothing about eliminating Laws. The Legislative branch of our government is tasked with creating Laws. The Executive Branch has tasked the various adminsitrative divisions to carry out the Laws. Sometimes this is done by creating among other things various programs through their offices, if they believe that the program will enhance or further the intent (spirit) of the Law. These programs and Laws can be challenged and then reviewed by the Judicial Branch of government in case they are found to be illegal or unconstitutional, respectively.

Please forgive me for all the bolding, but I am trying to be perfectly clear.



Oh, by the way: I have to admit, I really butchered LBJs quote.

Lyndon B. Johnson June 4, 1965

"But freedom is not enough. You do not wipe away the scars of centuries by saying: Now you are free to go where you want, and do as you desire, and choose the leaders you please.

You do not take a person who, for years, has been hobbled by chains and liberate him, bring him up to the starting line of a race and then say, "you are free to compete with all the others," and still justly believe that you have been completely fair.

Thus it is not enough just to open the gates of opportunity. All our citizens must have the ability to walk through those gates.

This is the next and the more profound stage of the battle for civil rights. We seek not just freedom but opportunity. We seek not just legal equity but human ability, not just equality as a right and a theory but equality as a fact and equality as a result."

In his commencement speech to Howard University.


Onfinal

Wow! And you want us to believe that not a SINGLE "Hispanic" at your school wanted to fly? In my short career in 121 and 135 so far, I alone must have flown with 10 cuban alone..

Hard to believe..