thanks, I'm trying to be reasonable in this is all. The history of AA in our profession (as well as other's like Fire Fighting and Police) has always been contentious I suppose.

I am a bit disheartened that this poll is filled with so many who don't think being born into a poor family, and rising up thru that kind of adversity whether in Appalachia or the inner city should get one some kind of benefit. Although I'd rather not see the excesses of 400 hour pilots into the cockpits of any Jet, much less a mainline job ever again in a time where 3000hr pilots are turned away. The kind of help on the hiring side I'd like to see is a system where "all else being equal" the one who came from nothing to get to where he was a "qualified and competitive" applicant should get the nod.

I really wish you wouldn't. The issue is AA and its relevance to the hiring of pilots, not politics.

Since experience is a factor in how we see this question, what has been your career?

I don't think so.

The goal is to hire the best qualified pilot...not to engage in social engineering.

Let's talk about today. Not the past. Do you have any evidence that discrimination exists today as it once did years ago?

In your earlier post, you seemed to be saying that the lack of minorities on the cockpit was proof of discrimination in hiring practices.

I asked you if the same lack in the military was also proof of the same kind of discrimination.

These days, I doubt that discrimination exists in any significant sense...in the civilian or military pilot populations.

The reason you see smaller numbers of non-whites or females in the cockpits is really simple. Fewer numbers of these folks want to be pilots. No grand conspiracy, no evil plots, no nothing of that kind. More white males want to be pilots than do black or Hispanic males, or females.

That's what I was saying, lets return to the discussion of AA. Maybe I need to edit that post for clarity.


4 years in 121 (1 as a CP), and 5 years in 91/135 (4 as a CP). the 121 had 1700 employees at it's height, and the 135 had 120.. I've also spent 2 years as a CFI with 3 difference places.



Again, if I ever said anything else, then please show me where.. I may have addressed training and exposure to the career in the formative years, but never at the hiring board.


I don't have any, but then I'm not black, and without walking in the shoes of someone who is, I can't see how you would know either?

This is in fact true. I think the applicant pool is where the problem lies, at least qualified applicant pool. Furthermore, I think it's compounded by the fact that for whet ever reason (could be racial, could be their sheer numbers as 50% of the total population), that white females get a much better shake in terms of representation and AA programs than all other true "minorities"

This AGAIN, is the elephant in the living room, and why I originally started this poll, and worded it that way I did.

I can say without any uncertainty that the average male (whether he be black, white, purple, or what ever) is far more likely to want to spend their life around airplanes, than the average female.. yet you look around the cockpit these days (especially at the better jobs on the mainline) and you see a lot more females than other minorities..

Why do you think that is shakone?

OK...not a newbie, but not exactly an old head either. You entered aviation in 1995...the anti-discrimination battles had been fought and won by that time. What you have seen in your experience and what some of us older folks have seen are markedly different.

That's easy enough to do.

"The kind of help on the hiring side I'd like to see is a system where "all else being equal" the one who came from nothing to get to where he was a "qualified and competitive" applicant should get the nod."

This is your topic, not mine. You are the one pushing this subject, not me. AA began as an answer to discrimination. You started a topic about AA in reference to pilot hiring. I'm asking you if you think this discrimination still exists.

Do you have any proof that white females benefit more from AA than other 'minorities'?

Really!!

That sounds like you are saying that your objection is that white females get a better break than other minorities. Is this what your real point is?

Beats me...but I'm not buying into your theory that white females get preferential hiring over other minorities.

My guess is that there are just more white females looking for careers in aviation than there are black or Hispanic males.

Well then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I mean really, if you've been in this profession for a few years and you can't see the obvious situation with regards to the white female & affirmative action vs racial minorities and same, then there isn't much I can do to show it to you.

A question for you (again).. do you seriously want us to believe that the vast majority of white female pilots (which vastly outnumbers the racial minority pilots in the system) were all hired fair and square?

btw.. my point is EXACTLY that... the social engineering problem is rooted in the feminist agenda to make 50% of every job that is traditionally male dominated female. YES, that is my elephant.

I did have a life prior to aviation.. 5 years in the Army, with it's own battles with AA, and 4 year at the university with it's battles with same. Newbie is hardly relevant to the debate.



So let me ask you then... ALL ELSE BEING EQUAL why not give the edge to the guy who wasn't born with the silver spoon?

The topic is indeed mine, and my thesis which you clearly either refuse to accept as a result of a pre-held view on race/sex or because you just haven't seen it (which is negated by the fact that you're a veteran airline pilot).. is that.. (in caps for emphasis): WHITE WOMEN GET THE VAST MAJORITY OF AA's BENEFIT, WHILE THE WHINING IS 95% AGAINST RACIAL MINORITIES.. which frankly proves the point that discrimination and racism are alive and well..