Outsider

I figured I'd better ask this pretty soon because before long there won't be many who could answer it.
Back in the later 60's I was a new CFI and of course we were always trying to figure out what hiring was going on at the airlines.
But of course there was no internet and info was very difficult to come by.
There was a story about TWA during at least part of the time that it was being run by Howard Hughes.
It went like this; you hired on as an FE (as usual) then if and when you put in about 2 years (don't remember the exact amount but it was very short especially when compared to Pan Am which around this time it was typical to sit sideways for 7-9 yrs) and kept your nose clean you could take the oral and practical to become a FO. If you passed you were an FO, if you failed you were out, like out of the company. Same went for the move from right to left seat. Consequently there were some of the youngest Captains and oldest FE's in the airlines.
Does any body know if there is or was any truth or partial truth to this story. I've always been curious.

contrails

Someone will probably reply with more detail but the gist of it is, it's true. I know a guy who was hired with very, very, very little flight time and worked his way from the 707 FE spot to right seat to captain to L1011 captain to spending the last ~15 years in the left seat of the 747.

Funny thing is, he went to school for a totally non-aviation subject and no specific goal, and got a job for TWA throwing bags and that sparked his curiosity.

mike734

Didn't American have an up or out policy 20 years ago? You could bypass upgrade a certain number of times but then you had to upgrade or leave. Once you upgraded you could downgrade again without consequence. Or so I'm told that's the way it went.

RedeyeAV8r

I think you are thinking of Professional Flight Engineers.

In the 60's, all airlines (Majors anyway) had Second Officers (Flight Engineers). Again in the 60's most of the Airlines hired Pilots as their Flight Engineers (as was done until everyone parked their 3 seaters). In those early years, post WWII and Korea many of the Professional Engineers were not pilots. They came from the DC-4 and Tri-Connie days or B-29s 37's. Then the Pro Flight Engineers were usually A & P's, meaning they were also Mechanics.
The Flight engineers had a separate Union (separate seniority list) as the PFE was often a permanent position. As the Jet age emerged 707, 727, Convair 880's etc, the Major Airlines began hiring Pilots as their FEs. They were given a seniority number as a pilot and they progressed like most do now, you move up when someone above you moves up, or when the company expands. Individual Company's may have had some type of Up or Out policy but normally it was by choice as seniority allowed.

The "Oral Check" out you reference, was when a PFE wanted to move up as a Pilot or was given the chance to by his employer. Many Airlines allowed these PFE a Shot at becoming a Pilot, but they had to get their Commercial Pilot certificates. If they were already an employee the Airlines would hire them if they had a Comm/inst rating and could pass the Airline Training program. (United's old 300 hour pilot minimums comes to mind). But it was more than an Oral Check out, it was a Full Airline seat upgrade program.

You are correct that seat movement was slow in the 1960-1980. It was typical to be an FE for 5-7 years and an FO for another 7. Typical Captain upgrade time was +-15 years. Then came deregulation.

forgot to bid

I don't know.specifically but I had a Fed ride once with a retired TWA guy from.CLE-MCI. Great guy btw. He mentioned how he got to TWA in the late 60s and I want to say it was like "go.get your commercial and we'll hire you" and he made his way to the Captain seat very.very.quickly. I just don't remember the specifics but it required a double take.

Bucking Bar

Red Eye,

Your report is correct.

Both Seaboard and Tigers hired Professional Flight Engineers who not only worked the panel, but who kept the engines turning by whatever means necessary when they were the only airlines flying within 2,000 miles of places like Manaus, the Sub- Sahara and China just after WW2.

My father still places his feet on the floor in my Bonanza and tells me more than my 6CYL EGT/CHT/Fuel Computer can about the engine's health. Guess the skills that help you find which of 144 spark plugs is misfiring never completely go away.

Bucking Bar

United was briefly hiring Private Pilots and training them, 1966 or 67, I think.

sailingfun

There was a actual shortage of pilots from about 66 to 69. Some airlines hired almost zero time pilots.

Bucking Bar

Two years ago a very close friend who had flown P-47's over Europe passed away. When cleaning out his things we ran across his early photos albums which were the coolest I've ever seen. One one page were the P-40's, P-51's, P-47's, P-38's and P-80's he flew ... on the opposite pages were hot chicks, some clad in the outfits you'd commonly see in Nose Art of the period.

This one stunningly beautiful woman stood out from the rest. She kept showing up and in one picture she was in a TWA Uniform. We had a party at our house after the funeral and I finally asked his 88 year old sister "who is this beautiful woman" ? She beamed and said "it's me, silly."

TWA selected some of their prettiest FA's to work the "Hughes flights" and she was proud that she had been selected. She was very junior and these flights were a much better schedule than she could hold. Hughes would sometimes fly, sometimes sit in back. In her opinion he was a smooth pilot. She does not describe any of the odd behavior that we read about today. Basically VIP ops were not a whole lot different than the way major airlines treat VIP charters today. Find employees that smile nice and who are flexible with the changing schedules and requests that big spenders (or owners) desire.

RhinoPherret

I remember sitting at the FE station on an AA 707 back in 1966 (with that good old Astrojet logo on the side). Quite a cool looking position to a pre-teen back then.

I also remember sitting at the FE station on a Clipper 747 back in 70 or 71 (can’t remember exactly). (Friend was a FE) It was still impressive to a teenager back then. When I was growing up, the FE was definitely a standalone position that you aimed for if you could not/did not want to become a pilot. It was impressed on me that you were not going beyond FE to become a pilot. Just how it was often viewed in those times. I didn’t know back then there would come a day when jets would not need a FE. Funny, I know.