Sounds like Colgan. Are you sure there aren't a few Saabs hidden somewhere?

You don't have use such a big brush to paint us, dude.

Flying for Delta isn't my first job in the private sector - I come from the seamy underbelly of FAR 135 flying, and my only regret looking back is that the check-hauling jobs are long gone. That was a good way for a young punk to gain valuable experience.

I get it that we often come off as elitist, and offer my apologies for my colleague's poorly chosen words.

My concern after reading the original post in this thread was the broader implications of the poster's situation on the rest of us. Operations like these drag the rest of us down. It also harms Allegiant's pilot union (they're IBT, right?) and their effectiveness by moving their pilots all over the system as he describes. Ryanair does the exact same thing.

Maybe your interests would be better served as part of ALPA? I belonged to the Teamsters when I was with Executive Jet Aviation / Netjets, and the experience could be charitably described as underwhelming. Better services, and an actual presence in DC.

Dawgdriver, I hope you get out of there soon, and find greener pastures.

ALPA was approached prior to this last union drive. They politely told us to take a hike, they weren't interested.

Thanks; I stand corrected!

Thanks Starcheck, much appreciated.

I am one of many, possibly most, that have our applications out but I'm supporting our union until my phone rings. I have been here almost 7 years and thought this place was going to be my last. It used to be a great place to work. Unfortunately about four years ago, everything changed. The executives got short-sighted and greedy. They went out and hired a bunch of bright eyed young MBA's who knew nothing about running an airline. The execs gave them unlimited authority. Coincidently, at the same time, former Northwest airlines Middle management types were on the street and looking to spread their employee hostile philosophies around the industry.

Together, these two groups were given their marching orders: maximize profit at all cost. Our CEO's philosophy of "investment-grade" stock drove a specific profit target that used the 'expense' side of the equation as the controllable element. Knowing what the potential revenue would be, the target became the expense--regardless of the impact to the operation, its employees, or its customers. All department heads were given a budget which was 'top down' driven and forced to make do. The accountants were in charge and management soon became a distant entity. Communications have all but ceased and the management/employee relations have become hostile.

Since then, the operation has eroded to the point of utter chaos. Despair and frustration have driven constant turnover and, in the interest of keeping expenses down, many that left were not replaced, leaving fewer to do the work (except 'cost analysts', whose ranks have swelled). If there was an effort to replace lost managers, the reputation of this company and its meager salaries ensured we weren't able to attract experienced, trained (quality) people. The latest managers hired up from the ranks have been nothing short of a laughing stock. As would be expected, company profits (and our workload) soared, while our W-2s shrunk dramatically.

All this results in an operation that is resembling of an airline that just opened its doors. Its like building a new house by hiring inexperienced, untrained and unmotivated help off the street. Every day the learning curve is vertical, costly mistakes are repeated, and nothing works. If a fix is implemented, the cure is worse than the disease. The only real experience out there is the pilot and he has had every bit of authority taken away. If people try to speak up or help, they are ignored or labeled as trouble makers. Management knows best, do your job and shut up.

Many on this thread have logically questioned the veracity of these stories. After all, how can such a profitable airline be run this way? It can't, at least not for long, and our 'leaderships' experience at ValuJet should tell them that. Unfortunately, they still place the blame elsewhere and continue with the exact same practices that killed those people in the Everglades.

While currently blinded and arrogantly basking in the bullet-proof $120 stock they've removed "integrity" from our set of core values. Interestingly enough, at the same time they re-named us a "travel company" (to distance themselves from the operation), they also removed ownership of the aircraft and placed them under Sunset Asset Management LLC. 'Defray, Deny, and Distance' appears to be the only philosophy these two learned from ValuJet.

Sadly, even a new contract will still involve the same incompetent and greedy management team. Much like now, where they have ignored a federal court order of status quo, and the FAA. they will continue to ignore the contract. Until new management takes over the company, it will always be a disaster of an operation. Many have recognized that and are leaving. Management hopes to replace the never-ending vacancies with their new approach of attracting bushy tailed pilots seeking the allure of being virtual street captains. That plan, like others, will also fail when these guys detect the familiar taste of fools gold and follow the rest of us out the door.

Our CEO has often claimed a preference for building airlines to actually running them. Perhaps he should just get out of this business altogether. His philosophies are absolutely ruinous to this profession and industry. In order to keep pace in the ruinous race to the bottom , traditional strong career airlines are being forced to follow suit with massive outsourcing and 'unbundling', and severe budget cuts.

Standby, coming to a theater near you.

Besides GB(who at least at NWA was the best chief pilot/DO we ever had. True pilot advocate. Hopefully he hasn't changed) who else?

Sadly, the best talent available couldn't make a difference here so long as the marching orders and philosophies come from the top.

Get in line or resign.

Well said. This has been the new slogan coming from middle management in the past few months. Our former line pilots who have crossed into management have Stockholm Syndrome.

Many of our senior folks out west came from Grand Canyon -135 operations and did believe they 'made it'. Looking back, I think we all did. It wasn't 4 years ago that people were clamoring to get on here and recommending their buddies to get on board.

Not anymore.

Although the negative feelings and sentiment here in FL were slower to take hold, it didn't take long to settle in once the practices guys were complaining about out west made its way here.

Alternate universe, perhaps?

How senior do you have to be to avoid the latest TDYs as an Airbus or -83 FO?

I wasn't going to go there, but Wurmy said it well. I don't believe many in the pilot ranks would say he has been an advocate. Most of the deterioration in our relationship, quality of life and income have occurred during his tenure. He's perceived as one who talks much, and listens little.
Nonetheless, our former VP, JC, loved by all, but eventually left as he didn't see eye to eye with the exec leadership.

It won't matter who staffs the middle management ranks, the results will be the same

"Well back at Northwest........"

Talking to many former NWA pilots, GB seems to be a "love him or hate him" kind of guy. While I agree that the previous DO was well-respected, he and the Chief Pilot were ineffective (at least towards the end). While the CP was never an advocate for the pilots, I think the DO was just worn down over the years of having to tap dance for the ValuJet team at Headquarters. The Lake Charles incident was the final nail in his coffin and he was asked to "retire" in 2010.

I actually was one of the original cheerleaders for our current Chief Pilot and for GB (VP of FLOPS). GB came from an actual airline and I truly believed that he could turn us from a flying club into an real airline. To his credit, there have been a few sporadic operational changes to make our lives easier while flying the line. HOWEVER, together with a Sr. VP of Ops from NWA (who is gone after destroying the operation and cashing in his stock) and a Director of MX Control (also from NWA) they have definitely brought the "NWA of old" philosophy to Allegiant.

Even the current Chief Pilot (who was a senior line pilot and very well-respected) has all but disappeared into the abyss. I had high hopes for him but at the end of the day, he was no match for the 24 year old newly grads who are running FP&A. We are viewed as overpaid whiners who are an obstacle to a stock price which seems to defy the laws of economics.

As recently as a few years back, I would tell everyone that I will stay here until they kick me out. I loved the QOL and although the compensation left much to be desired, I knew there would be consistent improvement (and there was). I felt that I was part of the start of something great. The Allegiant of yesterday is over. What is left is an operation that you would expect to read about in Flying the Line, Vol 1. I am actively seeking employment at a legacy carrier and I hope to escape before the path we are currently on leads to a catastrophe with loss of life. There is still time to turn the ship, but I'm not hopeful.

Seriously, someone needs to drop a dime to the FAA in DC. It sounds like your POI and PMI have Stockholm Syndrome.

Call Scary Mary Schiavo.

GB must have turned in his pilot advocate hat when he came here. I have yet to see "best DO we have ever had" material. The downward spiral in our QOL started when he signed on. I can only hope what you say is true and think maybe someone above him pulls his strings. But until he proves otherwise he's one of the worst DOs I have ever had...

I was one of the many who have turned down the interview at Allegiant. Soon as they told me they do not provide transportation to and from interview and no hotel during training i gave them the thumbs down. This was a while ago and literally drove down the street to my local Home Depot and got a temporary job there instead of dealing with Allegiant ( was between flying jobs at the time). Allegiant might be a good job for a younger single individual with no family.

I wish everyone would do that. Thank you.

As far as what management says: "we have a ton of resumes on file" We aren't worried.......:D

Dawg,
Just to add to your remark of many questioning how such an oncoming trainwreck can be so profitable and command such a high stockprice.

In 1944 St. Matthew Island in Alaska had 29 reindeer barged in as an emergency food supply for Coast Guard personnel. The island was abandoned by humans and in 1963 a visit counted over 6000 reindeer. In the summer of 1966 another visit counted 42 reindeer. They were soon gone completely.

While an example from the natural world and the idea of limits, overshoot applys to businesses as well. To an observer who lacks the willingness to probe critically, things usually look best just before collapse. (Braniff II anyone?)

I have friends and ex co-workers there and wish all that this will turn out well, but it sounds as though it is approaching the unsustainable.
Good luck to all.

Really a new hire is expected to pay for their own hotel for training? (At a regional that could be 2 months) how long is training at Allegiant?

Did they make u pay for your carry on going to training?

Seriously - just started reading the thread, prior had much interest in the airline, but now?

If they are that cost driven how much is the training bond if they type you?

Training is supposed to last 2 months. It's been taking closer to 6. They send you home after groundschool.

They don't provide transportation to training, unless you live in a city Allegiant serves.

There is no training contract.

I know if you say its true it probably is but that is so hard to wrap ones head around comming from an airline.

I don't have the quals to work there yet so the thread just caught my eye... And it opened it.

wow and thanks.

The minimums are now preferred at 3000, but negotiable.

The 'Top 10' at ValuJet went to AirTran. It's the guys who sucked at ValuJet who were dismissed during the merger with AirTran that started Allegiant.

It's also telling that of those 'Top 10' only 1 made it from AirTran to Southwest.

The "leftovers" from Valujet went to Allegiant. The "leftovers" from Northwest (what Delta didn't want) went over to Allegiant. What Mesa didn't want, went to Allegiant.....Seeing a pattern here?? :rolleyes:

I wasn't aware that there were Northwest "leftovers" that Delta didn't want. How did that happen? :)

He was referring to NWA management, not NWA pilots. When asking current DL pilots (who were former NWA) about these guys, the answers ranged from "they should have kept their positions at Delta" to "good luck with HIM, you'll need it".

Yep, NOT referring to pilots, just management :rolleyes:

That's good to hear. I was wondering how I made it through. That explains it. They had no choice. :D

Besides GB, who else came over from NWA?

Check your PM's.

Hopefully CLMP filled you in, but suffice to say there were many. I'm missing some but I know there were at least 2 VPs (Operations, Stations), 1 Senior VP (Maintenance and Operations), and at least one director (Maintenance Control). It all happened in a short period of time. Like a previous poster stated, we haven't been very fortunate in terms of the airlines we have received our management types from (Mesa, NWA, ValuJet). They tend to come in chunks: as one management hack gets hired, he calls his buddies, who then calls his buddies… Not to be a total downer, Midwest actually delivered a good guy (MD-80 Fleet Manager). It doesn't matter much though, because no matter what the qualifications, background or philosophy, they will follow the direction of the King, his prince, and their court jesters (ambitious, young, clueless MBAs). The good ones quit, the rest knuckle under.

Like dictators, our fearless leaders barricade themselves in palatial buildings and surround themselves with concubines instructed to routinely remind them how dashing and brilliant they are. Seriously, the 'palatial' activity is comical to watch: cubicle parties, cutest pet or cupcake contests, while our operation melts down and our engines burn. It's like 2 different airlines. Thankfully, FL pilots are spared the annual recurrent visit to Mecca, I don't know that I could stand seeing it again.

Reading these posts, I couldn't agree more with Dawg. This place is out of control as mentioned numerous times. What really concerns me is that, even with a contract, and let me thank our union guys, they are doing what they can to make this happen, and thanks to the IBT and local who are footing the bill for this painstaking process, but even if it was a great contract, we still have this ridiculous management team. There are so many facets to this operation and all of them are completely out of control and many are dangerously so. I can't help but think that, even if we have a great contract, we will still have to deal with new dispatchers, new mx personnel, new everyone in every department, including pilots, some of whom will be going from flying props to MD80s with 2 months on the line?!! Are you kidding me? As long as this place is a stepping stone for every employee, we as pilots will be responsible for training these people and in so doing, will be involved in arguments, finger pointing and carpet dances trying to explain our side of the story, constantly. The paperwork issues, the min fuel policies, the horrendous engine mx will continue. I mean, look at the most recent letter from AL, he says we will use "industry best practices" from now on with mx and other functions. The next day we get a letter from our fleet manager or whoever he is, and he says, paraphrasing, 'heh guys, you keep writing up our airbus for engine vibration because it reads too high but don't worry it really isn't, and our mx is going to fix it on its next big mx check…..in 2016.' What the?? 2016?!!! Nothing is going to change here until we get rid of all of this management team. They are trying, like another poster said here, to run an unsustainable model that is making more money like an engine can make more power, temporarily, by over revving the engine but we know how that works long term. I cannot believe that the FAA isn't all over shutting it down. 6 engine failures, some shut down, some catastrophic, in the last month, now this email about blowing off mx on a vibrating engine for 2 years. Unbelievable.

I want this place to be a safe, well run airline that is good to its employees and its customers, and I know others feel the same. We used to write emails to management with suggestions on how to make it better. For years we did this, nothing changed. This is how management wants it. The ONLY thing that matters is profit margin. I appreciate that profit is important, it is why businesses run, but its so disappointing to work for a place where that is the ONLY goal.

Oh boy where to start. Sorry to thread drift again. I'm done after this.

T, first of all I'm at JetBlue and live in base. Not everyone's goal is to be at Delta, as you assumed. Thank you for your service of our country. I have a lot of respect for the sacrifices you made for all of us. While I cannot fully understand or appreciate what it's like to be a former military guy, you also cannot be "simpatico to the plight of the regional pilot" by just talking to a regional guy. You must experience it.

I took exception to your comment to just quit. Saying "if it's so bad just quit" has got to be one of the most ignorant posts someone can respond with. Obviously these guys are trying to leave, they're here warning others not to come.

(And just a side note, I've always been treated great by Delta guys, this is only aimed at Tsquare)

Well said, but logic doesn't penetrate hubris.

Speaking as a veteran, you don’t need to thank me or square. We got more out of our service than we gave. Square got a free million-dollar flight education, which completely insulated him from the underbelly of civilian aviation. He sits high on his thrown and wonders what you’re complaining about. He should be thanking you the american taxpayer, which allowed him to enjoy only the plummest portions of aviation.

^+1. Fixed it for you.

Also speaking as a veteran, I appreciate your humilty X! And not to defend Square - I'd just remind us all there were many men who rotted in Japanese POW camps, or in the Hanoi Hilton. Many went down in a ball of fire over Germany, Vietnam, Iraq or Afghanistan. These pilots will never sit on the Delta throne. I think it is ok to receive a thank-you from a civilian now and then. Not for us, but for them; the guys who didn't get to cash in on their million-dollar flight education. We're the only ones that can speak for them now and when people thank us, they're really thanking them - don't you think?