Middle East carrier subsidies
03-08-2015, 12:16 PM
#31
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2010
Position: Baja Vermont
Posts: 5,177
Originally Posted by ShyGuy
Well I suppose the simple answer is while in the rest of the world you can roll into an A320/330 or 777 at 250-500 hrs, in the US most civilian pilots have work at the regional airlines which have ALPA-sanctioned poverty wages. If Delta/American/United hired pilots at 250-500 hrs then the regional stepping-platform wouldn't exist.
Again, no one put a gun to anyone's head to fly at regionals. A good friend and former colleague in '04 looked at the regionals and said, "no, thanks". While you can have your opinions on corporate flying, he's in his mid-thirties knocking down 200k per year, working 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off without commuting. Now many RJ guys will do that after 10 years and how many will be B777 captains?
GF
03-08-2015, 12:25 PM
#32
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,898
Originally Posted by galaxy flyer
ShyGuy,
Again, no one put a gun to anyone's head to fly at regionals. A good friend and former colleague in '04 looked at the regionals and said, "no, thanks". While you can have your opinions on corporate flying, he's in his mid-thirties knocking down 200k per year, working 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off without commuting. Now many RJ guys will do that after 10 years and how many will be B777 captains?
GF
Again, no one put a gun to anyone's head to fly at regionals. A good friend and former colleague in '04 looked at the regionals and said, "no, thanks". While you can have your opinions on corporate flying, he's in his mid-thirties knocking down 200k per year, working 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off without commuting. Now many RJ guys will do that after 10 years and how many will be B777 captains?
GF
03-08-2015, 12:34 PM
#33
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2010
Position: Baja Vermont
Posts: 5,177
But, he was starting at the same place in his career, zero turbine time, just starting out; took a different path. Well, there about a thousand large cabin business jets in the US, you figure it out how many jobs. Lots, actually and much hiring nowadays.
GF
GF
03-08-2015, 12:48 PM
#34
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 351
Originally Posted by ShyGuy
Everyone wants to work at a major/legacy. All of them require turbine time. Military is an option as are come corporate/cargo gigs. But for the most part the overwhelming majority of civilian guys have to go through regional airlines to meet the mins for the legacy/major airlines. But that's not the point....
Lets call a spade a spade. It is an outsourced feeder operation flying your Delta logo slapped on RJs flying at one time nearly 50% of your Delta feed with outsourced pilots making less than half what you make. Instead of turning this on the regional pilots, how about "guess what would have happened if legacy pilots stood up for what's right and not allow RJs to be outsourced in the first place in the 90s starting with Comair?" That's the better question. Those jets should be operated at the legacy airline. Delta has a published CRJ-900 payrate. Compare that to every single DCI carrier. See how many CRJ-900s are operated by Delta Air Lines and how many operated by regionals operating as Delta Connection. How about we fix that problem instead of blaming regional pilots for accepting regional wages which they are only doing to try and make it to your carrier?
Lets call a spade a spade. It is an outsourced feeder operation flying your Delta logo slapped on RJs flying at one time nearly 50% of your Delta feed with outsourced pilots making less than half what you make. Instead of turning this on the regional pilots, how about "guess what would have happened if legacy pilots stood up for what's right and not allow RJs to be outsourced in the first place in the 90s starting with Comair?" That's the better question. Those jets should be operated at the legacy airline. Delta has a published CRJ-900 payrate. Compare that to every single DCI carrier. See how many CRJ-900s are operated by Delta Air Lines and how many operated by regionals operating as Delta Connection. How about we fix that problem instead of blaming regional pilots for accepting regional wages which they are only doing to try and make it to your carrier?
Last edited by poostain; 03-08-2015 at 12:59 PM.
03-08-2015, 01:11 PM
#35
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2014
Posts: 174
Hypocrisy and double standards are OK as long as you or your friends got theirs 
. Welcome to the USSA.
20,000 RJ drivers could get a 200K or major airline job if they would only think out of the box and apply themselves. They are RJ drivers, therefore it follows that they are 2nd class minds
Wow. I learnt so much from all you superior folks today.
. Welcome to the USSA. 20,000 RJ drivers could get a 200K or major airline job if they would only think out of the box and apply themselves. They are RJ drivers, therefore it follows that they are 2nd class minds
Wow. I learnt so much from all you superior folks today.
03-08-2015, 01:36 PM
#36
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2005
Position: tri current
Posts: 1,485
No question that QR and EY receive significant support from their respective government, EK less so.
That said, there are some slightly arrogant and ignorant assumptions in the majority of talk on this subject. "We have the biggest travel market in the world and therefore deserve to remain the biggest carriers". Well, not anymore you don't. Look at these charts to see some interesting statistics:
World's busiest passenger air routes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Anyone with a modicum of intelligence will be able to see that world travel trends are changing, and not in favor of the U.S. or European legacy airlines.
There are only 1 billion people in all of the Americas and only 1 billion people in all of Europe (including eastern Europe). There are 4 billion in Asia and 1 billion in Africa. Asia is going to add another 1 billion and Africa is likely to add another 2 billion by 2100. This while the population in Europe and the Americas is likely to decline.
So where is the growth and who is positioned to benefit from it?
A little less whining and a little more vision from the leaders of the U.S. and European legacy carriers would go a long way towards confronting the problems they will face with changing global demographics and global travel trends.
I don't proclaim to know how best to respond to the "threat" of the Middle East carriers, but can almost certainly guarantee that protectionism is not the answer.
It's interesting to see that management at FedEx and Atlas is vocally against what the Legacy 3 and ALPA are supporting. FedEx and Atlas pilots would be adversely affected by any protectionist measures adopted by the USA in the form of reprisals. They fly significant 5th or 7th freedom type routes and their business model depends heavily on that. UPS can be included in there too, I guess. JetBlue and a few others code share with the some of the Middle East three. So doesn't that benefit their pilots with increased connecting traffic?
Be careful what you wish for, it may not be exactly what you think it will be.
But that's pretty typical of anything that ALPA touches. It was partially their arrogance that subjected us to twenty plus years of RJs and super low wages for a significant number of professional pilots in the USA.
Typhoonpilot
That said, there are some slightly arrogant and ignorant assumptions in the majority of talk on this subject. "We have the biggest travel market in the world and therefore deserve to remain the biggest carriers". Well, not anymore you don't. Look at these charts to see some interesting statistics:
World's busiest passenger air routes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Anyone with a modicum of intelligence will be able to see that world travel trends are changing, and not in favor of the U.S. or European legacy airlines.
There are only 1 billion people in all of the Americas and only 1 billion people in all of Europe (including eastern Europe). There are 4 billion in Asia and 1 billion in Africa. Asia is going to add another 1 billion and Africa is likely to add another 2 billion by 2100. This while the population in Europe and the Americas is likely to decline.
So where is the growth and who is positioned to benefit from it?
A little less whining and a little more vision from the leaders of the U.S. and European legacy carriers would go a long way towards confronting the problems they will face with changing global demographics and global travel trends.
I don't proclaim to know how best to respond to the "threat" of the Middle East carriers, but can almost certainly guarantee that protectionism is not the answer.
It's interesting to see that management at FedEx and Atlas is vocally against what the Legacy 3 and ALPA are supporting. FedEx and Atlas pilots would be adversely affected by any protectionist measures adopted by the USA in the form of reprisals. They fly significant 5th or 7th freedom type routes and their business model depends heavily on that. UPS can be included in there too, I guess. JetBlue and a few others code share with the some of the Middle East three. So doesn't that benefit their pilots with increased connecting traffic?
Be careful what you wish for, it may not be exactly what you think it will be.
But that's pretty typical of anything that ALPA touches. It was partially their arrogance that subjected us to twenty plus years of RJs and super low wages for a significant number of professional pilots in the USA.
Typhoonpilot
03-08-2015, 02:09 PM
#37
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,273
Originally Posted by Typhoonpilot
No question that QR and EY receive significant support from their respective government, EK less so.
That said, there are some slightly arrogant and ignorant assumptions in the majority of talk on this subject. "We have the biggest travel market in the world and therefore deserve to remain the biggest carriers". Well, not anymore you don't. Look at these charts to see some interesting statistics:
World's busiest passenger air routes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Anyone with a modicum of intelligence will be able to see that world travel trends are changing, and not in favor of the U.S. or European legacy airlines.
There are only 1 billion people in all of the Americas and only 1 billion people in all of Europe (including eastern Europe). There are 4 billion in Asia and 1 billion in Africa. Asia is going to add another 1 billion and Africa is likely to add another 2 billion by 2100. This while the population in Europe and the Americas is likely to decline.
So where is the growth and who is positioned to benefit from it?
A little less whining and a little more vision from the leaders of the U.S. and European legacy carriers would go a long way towards confronting the problems they will face with changing global demographics and global travel trends.
I don't proclaim to know how best to respond to the "threat" of the Middle East carriers, but can almost certainly guarantee that protectionism is not the answer.
It's interesting to see that management at FedEx and Atlas is vocally against what the Legacy 3 and ALPA are supporting. FedEx and Atlas pilots would be adversely affected by any protectionist measures adopted by the USA in the form of reprisals. They fly significant 5th or 7th freedom type routes and their business model depends heavily on that. UPS can be included in there too, I guess. JetBlue and a few others code share with the some of the Middle East three. So doesn't that benefit their pilots with increased connecting traffic?
Be careful what you wish for, it may not be exactly what you think it will be.
But that's pretty typical of anything that ALPA touches. It was partially their arrogance that subjected us to twenty plus years of RJs and super low wages for a significant number of professional pilots in the USA.
Typhoonpilot
That said, there are some slightly arrogant and ignorant assumptions in the majority of talk on this subject. "We have the biggest travel market in the world and therefore deserve to remain the biggest carriers". Well, not anymore you don't. Look at these charts to see some interesting statistics:
World's busiest passenger air routes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Anyone with a modicum of intelligence will be able to see that world travel trends are changing, and not in favor of the U.S. or European legacy airlines.
There are only 1 billion people in all of the Americas and only 1 billion people in all of Europe (including eastern Europe). There are 4 billion in Asia and 1 billion in Africa. Asia is going to add another 1 billion and Africa is likely to add another 2 billion by 2100. This while the population in Europe and the Americas is likely to decline.
So where is the growth and who is positioned to benefit from it?
A little less whining and a little more vision from the leaders of the U.S. and European legacy carriers would go a long way towards confronting the problems they will face with changing global demographics and global travel trends.
I don't proclaim to know how best to respond to the "threat" of the Middle East carriers, but can almost certainly guarantee that protectionism is not the answer.
It's interesting to see that management at FedEx and Atlas is vocally against what the Legacy 3 and ALPA are supporting. FedEx and Atlas pilots would be adversely affected by any protectionist measures adopted by the USA in the form of reprisals. They fly significant 5th or 7th freedom type routes and their business model depends heavily on that. UPS can be included in there too, I guess. JetBlue and a few others code share with the some of the Middle East three. So doesn't that benefit their pilots with increased connecting traffic?
Be careful what you wish for, it may not be exactly what you think it will be.
But that's pretty typical of anything that ALPA touches. It was partially their arrogance that subjected us to twenty plus years of RJs and super low wages for a significant number of professional pilots in the USA.
Typhoonpilot
03-08-2015, 02:56 PM
#39
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Posts: 166
Originally Posted by sailingfun
So subsidized airlines in a free market are Ok?
Gimmee a break! Why don't you look at your carriers codeshare partners.
03-08-2015, 03:12 PM
#40
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 4,921
Originally Posted by Typhoonpilot
No question that QR and EY receive significant support from their respective government, EK less so.
That said, there are some slightly arrogant and ignorant assumptions in the majority of talk on this subject. "We have the biggest travel market in the world and therefore deserve to remain the biggest carriers". Well, not anymore you don't. Look at these charts to see some interesting statistics:
World's busiest passenger air routes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Anyone with a modicum of intelligence will be able to see that world travel trends are changing, and not in favor of the U.S. or European legacy airlines.
There are only 1 billion people in all of the Americas and only 1 billion people in all of Europe (including eastern Europe). There are 4 billion in Asia and 1 billion in Africa. Asia is going to add another 1 billion and Africa is likely to add another 2 billion by 2100. This while the population in Europe and the Americas is likely to decline.
So where is the growth and who is positioned to benefit from it?
A little less whining and a little more vision from the leaders of the U.S. and European legacy carriers would go a long way towards confronting the problems they will face with changing global demographics and global travel trends.
I don't proclaim to know how best to respond to the "threat" of the Middle East carriers, but can almost certainly guarantee that protectionism is not the answer.
It's interesting to see that management at FedEx and Atlas is vocally against what the Legacy 3 and ALPA are supporting. FedEx and Atlas pilots would be adversely affected by any protectionist measures adopted by the USA in the form of reprisals. They fly significant 5th or 7th freedom type routes and their business model depends heavily on that. UPS can be included in there too, I guess. JetBlue and a few others code share with the some of the Middle East three. So doesn't that benefit their pilots with increased connecting traffic?
Be careful what you wish for, it may not be exactly what you think it will be.
But that's pretty typical of anything that ALPA touches. It was partially their arrogance that subjected us to twenty plus years of RJs and super low wages for a significant number of professional pilots in the USA.
Typhoonpilot
That said, there are some slightly arrogant and ignorant assumptions in the majority of talk on this subject. "We have the biggest travel market in the world and therefore deserve to remain the biggest carriers". Well, not anymore you don't. Look at these charts to see some interesting statistics:
World's busiest passenger air routes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Anyone with a modicum of intelligence will be able to see that world travel trends are changing, and not in favor of the U.S. or European legacy airlines.
There are only 1 billion people in all of the Americas and only 1 billion people in all of Europe (including eastern Europe). There are 4 billion in Asia and 1 billion in Africa. Asia is going to add another 1 billion and Africa is likely to add another 2 billion by 2100. This while the population in Europe and the Americas is likely to decline.
So where is the growth and who is positioned to benefit from it?
A little less whining and a little more vision from the leaders of the U.S. and European legacy carriers would go a long way towards confronting the problems they will face with changing global demographics and global travel trends.
I don't proclaim to know how best to respond to the "threat" of the Middle East carriers, but can almost certainly guarantee that protectionism is not the answer.
It's interesting to see that management at FedEx and Atlas is vocally against what the Legacy 3 and ALPA are supporting. FedEx and Atlas pilots would be adversely affected by any protectionist measures adopted by the USA in the form of reprisals. They fly significant 5th or 7th freedom type routes and their business model depends heavily on that. UPS can be included in there too, I guess. JetBlue and a few others code share with the some of the Middle East three. So doesn't that benefit their pilots with increased connecting traffic?
Be careful what you wish for, it may not be exactly what you think it will be.
But that's pretty typical of anything that ALPA touches. It was partially their arrogance that subjected us to twenty plus years of RJs and super low wages for a significant number of professional pilots in the USA.
Typhoonpilot
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