I agree that no taxpayer money is going to a retired Delta pilot. Please answer these questions, though ...

Who administers that retirement?
Who pays those employees?
If the PBGC did not exist, what would have happened to that retirement or Delta as a company?

 

Guys, we are lucky to be in the presence of a guy who knows everything about everything.

Either that, or he doesn't know what he doesn't know.

Thank goodness he didn't go to Delta.

 

1. PBGC
2. PBGC
3. I suspect the plan would have remained frozen and the company would have funded the plan going forward as they are with the NWA pilot plan and the other 70,000 employees at Delta. The pilots would not have received the 650 million dollar note in that case and their would have been no cash distribution of the MPP plan. In addition the stock received by the pilots and sold in a claim sale may have been reduced. The PBGC would also not have received the windfall they got in Delta stock.

 

Very humorous, coming from you.

I said I don't know what I don't know, so asked for folks here to educate me ... And in response, I get non-factual, racist opinions from those who don't know either, but are very settled in their convictions ... Because their CEOs told them so?

Amen, brother! At least, I can carry on an intelligent conversation with those I fly with ...

 

Thanks for the discussion.

1. Correct.

"PBGC is not funded by general tax revenues. PBGC collects insurance premiums from employers that sponsor insured pension plans, earns money from investments and receives funds from pension plans it takes over."

2. Incorrect. If you send an email to them, their email address ends with @pbgc.gov. They were affected by sequestration.

"Pay: Most PBGC employees are paid according to the General Schedule (GS) Classification and Pay System."

3. Probably true, so if that happened, what would the company's balance sheet look like today?

Would they be able to buy new aircraft with that additional amount of debt load?

Or, the other (much worse) option, was they could not have carried that debt, no one loaned them the money, and they liquidated, like Eastern, Pan Am, TWA, or so many others in the history books.

 

Why is Emirates paying a dividend to ANY government? If it's an independent entity, why is it associating with the country's dictators at all? Does UAL, DAL, and AMR pay a dividend to the US government? Post a linky and page number, please, to the dividend payment. I want to read about it.

And no, I wouldn't say that it's "paying them back." I would say it's paying them back if the government had said, hey, we're giving you an arm's length LOAN to cover these losses at market rates, and you owe us the principal and interest every month for X years until it is paid back. But I'm not even sure if THAT is legal, and of course it didn't happen. The government just assumed all of their losses.

One does have to counter the paper's arguments point by point. There are LOTS of points.

 

So for $1299 two passengers can fly anywhere in the USA to Dubai round trip on Emirates now. Less than $700 per person to fly two 16 hour sectors from LAX-DXB-LAX. Funny timing to release such an incredibly low fare from the USA-DXB during all the heat going back and forth.

 

I couldn't point to a source, but I am almost certain all airlines are charged the same by airports. I think usually it goes by aircraft weight (regardless of the amount of passengers on board) and then of course there are taxes added directly to the passenger's ticket price as well. I bet we're about to find out, though, when the Big ME 3 come out with their counter report!

The Chapter 11 argument is probably the only plausible counter-argument in my opinion, but even then it's weak. First, as you state, there's no transfer of wealth from the US Government to anyone else. Second, even though the airlines are given a temporary stay from paying their debts, it's just that- a temporary pause. The bankrupt airline has to renegotiate the terms of the debt or liquidate and the creditor gets pennies on the dollar. The ME airlines just walk away from their forgiven debt and continue as an entity without having to liquidate. Third, you talk about these Chapter 11 laws as a benefit to US airlines. Think about the laws these Middle East dictators have on THEIR books that benefit THEM. For example, do you think I can start a union at one of their airlines? Sorry, illegal- and probably detrimental to your health! Fourth, let's say you're 100% right (and I don't think you are) and these bankruptcy laws are found to be a "subsidy." Do you think it's ANYWHERE NEAR in value the subsidies being described in the paper I attached? OK fine, as a concession, the U.S. will allow the big ME 3 to go through a Chapter 11-style TRANSPARENT bankruptcy to reorganize, just as US airlines do. He-he. They'd never agree to it. Too much to hide, and if the subsidies described are anywhere close to being accurate, there's no way they could come up with an exit plan to become a solvent, ongoing entity, like the US airlines had to do.


These Middle East dictators from which these 3 airlines come forth are scumbags F15. They are brutal, self appointed dictators who oppress their citizens. They hate us and just about everything we stand for in the West. God help you if you speak out against the government. The only reason we have ANYTHING to do with them is because they have the oil we need to keep our economy churning. Keep that in your mind as we negotiate bilateral rights with them. These dictators are NOT our friends. I have nothing against their citizens, but these kings, princes, mullahs, whatever they call themselves, are scumbags.

 

He-He. Yeah, I just saw that deal pop up in my in-box today. What a coincidence! I'm sure that a fare they can make, ahem, a "profit" on, too!

 

I think this statement right here shows significant lack of understanding. Have you ever been to any of these three places?

You could make that statement in reference to Saddam Hussein, Bashar Al Assad, or perhaps the Iranian leaders. To make it against the rulers of Dubai, Abu Dhabi, and Qatar though is a bit of a stretch.

I've often said that if you are a UAE citizen and not well off financially, it's only because you are either stupid or lazy. The citizens of the UAE are given tremendous opportunity by their government, much more so than in the west.

In the UAE there is a significant cult of personality and the majority of the citizens admire and love the rulers. Not saying that is right or wrong, but that is the way it is and it's mostly because these so called "dictators" treat their citizens very well.



Typhoonpilot