Holy cow I want to wipe that stupid smug smile right off that stupid face. Thank the lord the rest of the delta pilots aren't as big a douchebag as this guy. This little weasel is not worthy of the term pilot, and was quite possibly picked on in high school. Let it out little man, get back at all those guys who gave you wedgies in high school.

The joke is on everyone feeding the troll.

Im not sure why some of you guys are getting so ****ed off at WindowSeat. I like it here but if someone today was to ask me what airline they should go to, would you really tell them to come here (Spirit) over a Legacy? There is a lot more money to be made (as it stands now) at a legacy. Also, they don't meltdown when a few storms roll on in.....

Now, WindowSeat may think I don't have as much self respect as him but the only respect I need is from my daughter and wife and Spirit has allowed me to spend and enormous amount of time with them and that's what I'm concerned about, because to me that's what life's about ;)

You don't have a choice to make until you get a job offer(s).

Do your homework on both, try to get at least one and, if you're fortunate enough to be hired by both, make a "pros v cons" chart or flip a coin. With low pay QOL is everything.

Once you get to one of these ULCCs don't get comfortable. Learn as much as you can and have some fun, but if total career earnings and international widebody flying are what you're looking for - keep the applications with the Legacies current, and work your contacts.

The Air Wisconsin pilots were once very happy flying BAE-146s out of Denver for jobs that topped at just north of 100K. They were home almost every night, and had a nice niche carved out for themselves. Some of the Major airline pilots gave them grief, but $100K was enough to live on and they were happy. Nobody's business but theirs. Then UAL filed.

All of a sudden the 146 went away, and commuting to PHL on our red-eye to start work a couple of hours after landing, in a CRJ for $100K (or less), took the polish right off that apple. The #1 pilot from their list jumped to F9 almost immediately.

The moral is: Figure out what's important to you, and go for it. But try and make every stop along the way someplace you'd hang your hat for the rest of your career - in case you have to or decide to.

I've got no answer to your question. It's a matter of personal choice. I came to F9 with plenty of total & jet PIC time, but no 121 time. I figured I'd get that box checked, and go to DAL or Alaska (the only two that appealed to me for my own reasons). I got here just before we announced the Airbus order (then 9/11 & Legacy bankruptcies happened), and was off to the races with a two year upgrade, a bunch of out-of-contract pay raises / bonuses, a PS ride to/from work in my car and a fun group of people to work with. I'm not leaving now - but that's just me.

Good luck & study hard!

Well, comparing an ULCC to a fee for Departure airline isn't really relevant

Hey window meat,

Who am I?

I laughed at guys going to Southwest. Then the furloughs came. Then I cried about how I was getting payed less than LCC 737 pilots. Then there was bankruptcy. Some of my friends have been FOs for 20 yrs. Then we finally "caught up" to the LCC 737 pilots with our post bankruptcy contracts. Time to find someone else to try and belittle, so I can feel good about myself.

Go back and measure it again, cause I think it's still shorter than you want it to be. Besides, you're probably still flying RJs for Pinn sorry Endeavor, or you just got hired by someone. If youthink spreading your crap around here is gonna make it grow somehow, it's not.:D

Now, this thread is from a person looking for a Job.

Both contracts are below industry standards. Both contracts should renegotiated in the near future.

I would not base my decision on either current contract.

As the one honest, helpful thing that has been said above, go to whichever one hires you first.

The single most important factor in quality of life is living in domicile. Take a good look at the domiciles and seniority in them. I won't speak for spirit, but for frontier, we have Denver, Chicago and Orlando.

Thanks to all who constructively responded.

Is there an official date on the MCO pilot domicile opening for Frontier? Any other updated info on the size or relative seniority of MCO?

There is a Frontier thread going on as we speak. All your answers will be answered.

MCO opens up Sept. Two vacancies have gone out so far. 36 crews I believe after this second vacancy. The goal is to have roughly 150 crews by next summer. At the moment fairly Jr base, probably will stay that way

I don't get your riddle. I'm not good at those games.

Sure it's relevant. The reasons for ups and downs at fee for departure vs ULCC vs whatever else may sometimes be different, but that doesn't make them any less impactful to the employees. That's the only point he was making.

Ignorant troll is trolling! :rolleyes:

Hi Tom, I was in your boat this past January. I spoke with both and ultimately went with F9. If it helps, here were my considerations:

1) Both F9 and NKS are hiring about the same number of pilots per month, but NKS is about 50% bigger. Simple math says F9 is going to be a faster upgrade. (but they are both still WAY faster than legacies).

2) Though the airline industry as a whole is growing at the moment, the LCC's are operating more profitably and at cheaper margins, thus making them more resistant to market shocks... meaning I believe the chance of furlough is less there.

3) Despite what many may wish, the ULCC trend will, I believe, continue to take market share from the legacy carriers' domestic operations. As example, look at the European distribution of seat-sales between ULCC and their older names in the business.

4) NKS has a much better contract than F9, but I expect the latter to have a very significant compensation adjustment in their next contract (starts March 2016).

5) The pilot group at NKS and F9 is much younger and less bitter than... other larger carriers.

6) Pay is great, up to a certain dollar value. Then that "next dollar" of pay is worth less than a bit more quality of life. Find what makes you happy and choose from there.

7) Finally- and this is in hind-sight- I only had to sit reserve two months at F9 before getting a line. I'm not sure what it is at the legacies, but I imagine that's hard to beat.

This is just my opinion- hope it helps. Good luck to you.

Oh, and don't mind all the trolls here. Once you've "made it" to our career destination, sometimes there's nothing to do but complain. Some people look at the down side of everything. Stay positive :)

+1 Joey. You just earned yourself a new fan on APC for this.

Thanks for the thoughtful post.

I think both are great prospects. Yes, both are growing rapidly, but growth for growth's sake requires caution. Wall Street seems to be overly sensitive to capacity/demand changes, and both airlines have proved that consumers enjoy a la carte pricing structures.

Franke molded Spirit just the way he wanted- it didn't require Circle K-esque changes or draconic America West house cleaning. He sold his stake and took over F9- things seem to be getting more and more similar to the Spirit model. I feel like F9 needed drastic changes, and Franke exercised his might bringing in 3rd party agents. The dust is still airborne, but hopefully things will settle down and F9 will continue to provide it's solid product.

Can't say I'd be surprised about a F9/Spirit relationship down the road- it'd bolster F9 financially while giving Spirit a strong western footprint.

Window Seat seems to have gotten to everyone- guy was probably just having a bad day- likely went home and kicked the dog. Ultimately we're all in this industry together. Sharing our knowledge and support with each other helps us to stay informed and make smarter decisions for us and our families.

For the record...ive been here 3 and a half years (NK)....been in the left seat for almost a year and will make over 150k this year. QOL is top notch here and if your a family man its the best gig around. Highly doubt id be making this much coin at a legacy in the right seat. As far as retirement and LTD go, we desperatley need changes made in the next contract. Cant speak for f9 but upgrades at NK are still below the 3 year mark with no signs of slowing....for now

Nice figure. 150K comes out to be 95+ hours a month. Seems like you have to work for it to earn that much coin.

FYI F9's most recent CA award went 9/2007. Still not 2-3 year mark...yet. FOs bypassing is a huge drive behind the upgrades right now.

What's LTD?

You can make $150k/year at a legacy as an FO with the same longevity. You'll also have a 15-16% direct contribution plan that allows for better retirement while at the same time allowing you to keep your own monthly earnings instead of spending it to receive a meager 401k matching.

I'd equate what's going on at Frontier and Spirit to what we saw in the mid-2000s at regionals. Fast growth and folks incorrectly correlating a quick upgrade with QOL and high compensation. Obviously a fast upgrade is nice, but at a ULCC it's a necessity because the FO pay is so terrible and there really aren't any other compensation package benefits worth mentioning. At a legacy a quick upgrade is nice too, but upgrade is not a necessity to achieve a high income and retirement. Therein lies the difference.

On the other hand... The big question is how long will the pay-leaders of the industry go before their next house-cleaning. It's a crappy industry and you're rolling the dice anywhere you go.

There have been some great responses finally on this thread. As it's been said many times before, go with who hires you first. Don't delay, you never know what can happen.

Spirit is hiring and will continue to hire for a long time. The stated goal is 300 aircraft, we're just over 80. We're not even halfway to our desired airline size. Orders are there to get us well over a hundred, so does that mean a merger? Who knows, air shows happen every year, new orders could always be announced.

The thing I like about the current ULCC situation is the opportunities that come along with growth. I have been on property a little over two years, I'm bidding in the upper 1/4 in base, every other month I'm getting my 3rd or 4th choice of line bidding. Opportunities are there to work in the training department, become a Chief Pilot or other management types. Not sure how much opportunity and advancement is left in the legacies.

Spirit is still small, has its problems, but the feel of this place is the same as I garnered from reading the book "Nuts" about the early days of Southwest. Could it happen? Who knows, it's a gamble and we'll only know it paid off when the morning of our 65th birthdays arrive. Until then, I'm enjoying the ride, enjoying the lifestyle and living it up while I'm still young enough to enjoy it.

Long term disability.

Good grief. Let's not forget STD, (short term disability for you who don't habla) as well.

There is no reason you should have to hold on to 210 hours (5ish years) of sick time just so you dont burn through 3 months of savings waiting for long term.

So many in this group are ignorant to the benefits other airlines have out there.

Read your emails from our reps(not just the ones updating you about their training status) and stay informed or get informed!


(Including scope, retirement or anything else not mentioned.)

Minor correction but I believe we're taking #74 (A321CEO) this week.

Is it only 74? Must've been thinking by the end of the year we'll be at 80.

Thanks for the correction.

The main difference between old Southwest and current Spirit is that Southwest at one time had great employee/management relations. Spirit has never had that.

The relationship between Herb and his employees was probably akin to the relationship Ned has for his employees. Nevertheless, SWA's management/employee relationship seems to have soured and is now pretty much look every other airline.

5 year CA at NK: $136 per hour

5 year FO at AA: $151 per hour

Yes more can be made by flying extra hours/picking up open time . . .

And don't forget a healthy DC too!!!!!!

But the thread ISN'T about Spirit (or Frontier) vs. a legacy......:cool:

80 but still with an infrastructure for 36 planes. "Hi, Captain Jacobsen?" "Who's this?" "Yes, hi, this is First Officer Paisley from scheduling. We're junior manning you for a 'Dingo turn."

Left? It's just starting.

Not sure what you're talking about. No First Officer called me to go fly, and we don't have a junior manning requirement at Spirit.

You're telling me at the legacies in two years I can be line bidding in the upper 1/4th of Fort Lauderdale, not having to sit reserve, flying A320s, 1-2 legs a day, working in the training department? I can apply to be a Chief Pilot, look forward to being a Captain after being on property for 2.5 years and enjoy my mandatory four days off between pairings?

Tell me which legacy offers this so I can apply! I've said it time and time again money is NOT everything. I enjoy where and when I fly, with who I fly with and what I'm flying.

Why would I want to change that? All for an extra $20/hour to commute to a base in a city you couldn't pay me enough to live in on one of my days off, to sit reserve in a crash pad or fly a trip in an old or cramped aircraft, on a line I received via PBS?

Our contract is amendable in a month, I make a really good living now and enjoy my QOL. Why give that up for a few more bucks?

I like this post. Plus you won't get furloughed for the better part of decade and end up back at NK when the tide goes out.

I didn't say any of that. That's your own personal list.

My statement was regarding this:

"Not sure how much opportunity and advancement is left in the legacies."

I just stated that it's just started, as in the opportunity and advancement at the legacies. Of course not all of them will have the base and/or aircraft you want.

I largely agree with this post except its a lot more than $20 an hour and the contract is ammendable in 9 days. Nine.

Au contraire dumb bear...

Just because it's easy to avoid, doesn't mean there is no requirement. You accidentally answer the phone, you're going flying. Yes there are ways around that too, but the requirement exists. How could you possibly accidentally answer the phone? I don't know, but it seamed to happen a lot during the last furlough.

Well then, open early with mgmt for a $10/hr raise, no other changes. Boom done....no QoL disruption, you know, time value of money and all.

First off, the contract does not specifically address a requirement to fly if a pilot "accidentally" picks up their phone. The phone contact is the only legal method scheduling can use to junior man a pilot.

I am a commuter and have picked up my phone several times to hear what they have to say regarding a junior assignment needing to be filled. Not once have they required me to fly.

Yet...........

I can't emphasize how much you need to know the contract. If you are junior manned smile and accept the trip. Then tell them they need to change the departure time because you are fly fishing in Wisconsin and need three days to report. You were not on reserve. there is NO three hour call out.

If you're sick on a day you weren't scheduled to fly CS can't charge you a sick day if you're sick when they try to JA you. The end.