Typhoonpilot

In response to ProfessorJoeVee's somewhat bizarre thread on pilots passing away while at the controls ( even GA aircraft ) how about we start one on how many accidents are the result of inexperienced or immature pilots? A certain Pinnacle crash comes right to mind.

Better yet, why don't we highlight some of the better saves that experienced pilots have made. Two high profile UAL ones come to mind. How old was Al Haynes again?


Typhoonpilot

727C47

Capt. Cronin retired within months of his incredible save of the 747-400,out of HNL, (UAL, cargo door opened in flight,passenger cabin breached,2 engines on the port side fodded out,hydraulic issues as well.... great save !)

fireman0174

I think Al Haynes was 58 when UAL flight 232 occurred.

Lesser known, probably because it wasn't caught on tape like 232, was UAL Captain Dave Cronin's successful handling of a 747 from HNL after a large section of the fuselage had blown out, sucking nine passengers to their death.

Two of four engines quit and wing flaps were damaged, but Dave's flying skills and experience saved 327 passengers. Dave also made the decision to not drop the landing gear, which was part of the procedure for their high-dive. Analysis later determined that if the gear had gone done, they wouldn't have made the airport. Experience and judgment.

Also, when this occurred, they were deviating around thunderstorms, adding a few more complications.

Within a month Dave was "too old to fly" commercial airplanes. The year, as I recall, was 1989.

I flew as F/O with Dave on the DC-8. He could fly that old bird like no one else.

Of course, a few from this forum would probably state that if Dave was past 60, they wouldn't have made it.

LAfrequentflyer

What makes you think it was experience and judgement that saved the day?

Maybe he just guessed right and that made all the difference.

No...I don't buy the experience / judgement thing at all...We make the right decision and it works out. Sometimes we make the wrong one and it still works out.

-LAFF

flappy

I don't buy it either. I've been with as many old shaky pilots as young ones...

fireman0174

Yea, you are right. He took out a coin and flipped it to make his decision.

I hope I'm never on a sick airplane with you at the controls. Good grief.

LAfrequentflyer

You said anything about flipping a coin?

Defend your position with integrity if you believe in it.

In both cases the pilots did something not tried / not tried with success in the past. They got lucky when the chips were down.

Lets not get carried away - they got lucky when the chips were down.

-LAFF

fireman0174

It wasn't luck when Dave told the F/O NOT to put the gear handle down. It was judgment based upon years of experience.

Had Dave blindly followed the checklist their luck would have run out.

Al Haynes got "lucky" when Denny Fitch, the DC-10 training check airman who came to the cockpit, was available. But it wasn't luck when Al decided to use his talents, it was judgement fueled by years of exprience.

They "made" their own luck because of the decisions they made based on years of flying experience.

Slice

How many hours do you have? LAFF, you're so green, you don't even know how much you don't know yet...

All is well however, attending ATP will save the day.

Typhoonpilot

Remember I started this thread as a counterpoint to old pilots dropping dead at the controls. That is an argument against raising the maximum age. This thread is to show that old pilots can also save the day. Also, as said at the beginning, young pilots can make some pretty bad mistakes and be just plane immature, killing themselves in the process. Haven't seen many older pilots do that.

Just food for thought. There is always two sides to any argument. Personally I would rather be in an airplane flown by a highly experienced 59 year old when the chips are down than in one flown by a 29 or 39 year old.


Typhoonpilot