Delta, Northwest Focus On Joint Pilot Contract
02-09-2008, 08:13 AM
#1
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Delta, Northwest Focus On Joint Pilot Contract
From the Wall Street Journal online....I don't have access to the rest of the article, so if anyone does, please post the rest here so we can see more of what they are talking about. Sounds interesting though...don't think this has ever been tried before. May also be why we haven't heard anything from DALPA in a while.
Delta, Northwest Focus On Joint Pilot Contract
By Susan Carey and Paulo Prada
Word Count: 620 | Companies Featured in This Article: Delta Air Lines, Northwest Airlines, US Airways Group, UAL, Air France-KLM
Executives at Delta Air Lines Inc. and Northwest Airlines Corp. are trying to build a common labor contract for the 11,000 pilots at both airlines before they complete a merger deal, according to people familiar with the matter.
The negotiations, considered essential for smooth integration of those key labor groups, center on organizing a fair way of forming a unified, seniority-based roster. Without a prior agreement, talks with those pilots, represented by the Air Line Pilots Association, are tasks that could take years of bargaining to accomplish.
Delta and Northwest want to quickly achieve the synergies that would flow from...
Delta, Northwest Focus On Joint Pilot Contract
By Susan Carey and Paulo Prada
Word Count: 620 | Companies Featured in This Article: Delta Air Lines, Northwest Airlines, US Airways Group, UAL, Air France-KLM
Executives at Delta Air Lines Inc. and Northwest Airlines Corp. are trying to build a common labor contract for the 11,000 pilots at both airlines before they complete a merger deal, according to people familiar with the matter.
The negotiations, considered essential for smooth integration of those key labor groups, center on organizing a fair way of forming a unified, seniority-based roster. Without a prior agreement, talks with those pilots, represented by the Air Line Pilots Association, are tasks that could take years of bargaining to accomplish.
Delta and Northwest want to quickly achieve the synergies that would flow from...
02-09-2008, 08:37 AM
#2
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Joined APC: Jan 2008
Posts: 26
Delta, Northwest Focus
n Joint Pilot Contract
By SUSAN CAREY and PAULO PRADA -- WSJ
February 9, 2008
Executives at Delta Air Lines Inc. and Northwest Airlines Corp. are trying to build a common labor contract for the 11,000 pilots at both airlines before they complete a merger deal, according to people familiar with the matter.
The negotiations, considered essential for smooth integration of those key labor groups, center on organizing a fair way of forming a unified, seniority-based roster. Without a prior agreement, talks with those pilots, represented by the Air Line Pilots Association, are tasks that could take years of bargaining to accomplish.
Delta and Northwest want to quickly achieve the synergies that would flow from a merger and avoid a messy, protracted labor wrangle that could arise if they wait to get pilots' agreements after a merger were announced or consummated, those people said. US Airways Group Inc. and America West Airlines, which merged in 2005, still haven't been able to integrate their pilots, leading to inefficiencies and hard feelings.
The pilot talks, which also include provisions for pilots to get equity in the combined carrier, are determining the pace for what otherwise is viewed as a straightforward transaction, said one person close to the situation. Because the pilot talks could lead to improved contract terms for both groups compared with their current contracts, the union is engaged, one person said.
Still, it is taking time despite a rush by executives to complete merger discussions quickly in hopes of getting approval by regulators this year. Given the ongoing discussions, people familiar with the situation said, Delta and Northwest might not be able to finalize their proposed merger until late next week at the earliest.
For Delta, an agreement with pilots is crucial because they represent the carrier's only major labor union. The possibility of a merger, however, is leading other labor groups to grow increasingly vocal.
Labor organizers among Delta flight attendants recently received enough support to make plans next week to announce a vote on whether to join the Association of Flight Attendants, a national union. The attendants now have support from well over half of the airline's 12,000 flight attendants, according to people familiar with their efforts, and next week they are expected to file their plans for a vote with the National Mediation Board.
Betsy Talton, a spokeswoman for Delta, said the airline is "not surprised" by the attendants' plans and that the airline continues to believe that "Delta employees have always benefited from a direct relationship with management." She declined to comment on any negotiations with Northwest or the pilots. Northwest also declined to comment on merger talks.
Delta directors, who met Thursday and Friday, were given a presentation of what a combined airline would look like, said one person familiar with the situation. Though Delta has also discussed a merger with UAL Corp.'s United Airlines, according to people familiar with those discussions, talks with Northwest have been more productive.
Delta's board was also briefed on several other points in the deal negotiations, the person familiar with the meeting said.
The role of Doug Steenland, Northwest's chief executive officer, in a merged company has been resolved, two people familiar with the discussions said. While Mr. Steenland wouldn't be a member of the executive management team, he could take part as a board member.
One point that must be resolved is the possibility that Air France-KLM SA, which has marketing ties with both Delta and Northwest, could invest nearly $1 billion in a combined carrier, according to people familiar with the situation. A spokeswoman for Air France in the U.S. said corporate investments must be addressed by the airline's offices in France; a representative in Paris couldn't be reached late Friday.
Write to Susan Carey at susan.carey
wsj.com and Paulo Prada at paulo.pradawsj.com
n Joint Pilot Contract By SUSAN CAREY and PAULO PRADA -- WSJ
February 9, 2008
Executives at Delta Air Lines Inc. and Northwest Airlines Corp. are trying to build a common labor contract for the 11,000 pilots at both airlines before they complete a merger deal, according to people familiar with the matter.
The negotiations, considered essential for smooth integration of those key labor groups, center on organizing a fair way of forming a unified, seniority-based roster. Without a prior agreement, talks with those pilots, represented by the Air Line Pilots Association, are tasks that could take years of bargaining to accomplish.
Delta and Northwest want to quickly achieve the synergies that would flow from a merger and avoid a messy, protracted labor wrangle that could arise if they wait to get pilots' agreements after a merger were announced or consummated, those people said. US Airways Group Inc. and America West Airlines, which merged in 2005, still haven't been able to integrate their pilots, leading to inefficiencies and hard feelings.
The pilot talks, which also include provisions for pilots to get equity in the combined carrier, are determining the pace for what otherwise is viewed as a straightforward transaction, said one person close to the situation. Because the pilot talks could lead to improved contract terms for both groups compared with their current contracts, the union is engaged, one person said.
Still, it is taking time despite a rush by executives to complete merger discussions quickly in hopes of getting approval by regulators this year. Given the ongoing discussions, people familiar with the situation said, Delta and Northwest might not be able to finalize their proposed merger until late next week at the earliest.
For Delta, an agreement with pilots is crucial because they represent the carrier's only major labor union. The possibility of a merger, however, is leading other labor groups to grow increasingly vocal.
Labor organizers among Delta flight attendants recently received enough support to make plans next week to announce a vote on whether to join the Association of Flight Attendants, a national union. The attendants now have support from well over half of the airline's 12,000 flight attendants, according to people familiar with their efforts, and next week they are expected to file their plans for a vote with the National Mediation Board.
Betsy Talton, a spokeswoman for Delta, said the airline is "not surprised" by the attendants' plans and that the airline continues to believe that "Delta employees have always benefited from a direct relationship with management." She declined to comment on any negotiations with Northwest or the pilots. Northwest also declined to comment on merger talks.
Delta directors, who met Thursday and Friday, were given a presentation of what a combined airline would look like, said one person familiar with the situation. Though Delta has also discussed a merger with UAL Corp.'s United Airlines, according to people familiar with those discussions, talks with Northwest have been more productive.
Delta's board was also briefed on several other points in the deal negotiations, the person familiar with the meeting said.
The role of Doug Steenland, Northwest's chief executive officer, in a merged company has been resolved, two people familiar with the discussions said. While Mr. Steenland wouldn't be a member of the executive management team, he could take part as a board member.
One point that must be resolved is the possibility that Air France-KLM SA, which has marketing ties with both Delta and Northwest, could invest nearly $1 billion in a combined carrier, according to people familiar with the situation. A spokeswoman for Air France in the U.S. said corporate investments must be addressed by the airline's offices in France; a representative in Paris couldn't be reached late Friday.
Write to Susan Carey at susan.carey
wsj.com and Paulo Prada at paulo.pradawsj.com
02-09-2008, 09:10 AM
#4
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 11,989
(DOH, Fences, for the NWB 2007 hires) and ratio above, is my fairly well informed guess. It would need to be a pretty tall fence for the DAL guys since they are hiring into equipment that would be very senior (13 to 15 years) on the NWA property (wide body international - some 07 hires are holding ER lines). Also, NWA's small narrowbody fleet is shinking, reducing upgrade potential for DAL new hires. This was balanced by the demographics of the NWA pilots with more retirements coming up, but the age 65 rule negated some of that upgrade potential. The NWA guys say their age 60 crowd will retire, but at other airlines that has not been the case. We will have to see if there is some incentive that comes forward.
If ALPA gets something from the merger, I would like to see the union use that money to either buy the senior guys off the top of the list, or pay cash to the junior guys who are going to have their career expectations damaged by the merger. Buying the top NWA guys off their list would equalize the effect of the 2,000 Delta pilots that took an early retirement. It would be an equitable solution to the problem that this merger brings to the junior Delta pilots & to the NorthWest pilots who's upgrade potential might be effected by the large number of age 45 to 55 pilots at Delta.
I'm a 2007 hire holding domestic 767 in a warm weather base. I would hope there would be something to prevent similarly situated pilots from being blasted out of their base by a displaced DC-9 First Officer with 10 to 15 years' worth of seniority. In the case of displacements, the contract would have to be changed, or else folks like me might as well turn in our resignations now, to explain - Talking to the pilots in my class, most are planning on executing their second choice job option if the situation arises that NWA pilots can displace junior DAL guys as the DC-9's go away.
This will be a very good raise for the NWA guys. The folks that kept their pensions are getting their cake and eating it also.
Specifically, I'm not comparing pilot groups. But there is a large difference in opportunities available to the junior pilots at both airlines and this IS a deal changer. It is a lot easier to walk away before you have a whole lot of time invested. For now, I'll stay put and see how big the fences are.
Don't take anything I have written seriously. I DO expect some sort of protection and ALPA's effort at unity in this merger is the right thing to do. So don't let me stir the pot, or make anyone angry, I'm just offering ideas for discussion.
BTW - WOW - Good Article, thanks for posting this Corsair!
If ALPA gets something from the merger, I would like to see the union use that money to either buy the senior guys off the top of the list, or pay cash to the junior guys who are going to have their career expectations damaged by the merger. Buying the top NWA guys off their list would equalize the effect of the 2,000 Delta pilots that took an early retirement. It would be an equitable solution to the problem that this merger brings to the junior Delta pilots & to the NorthWest pilots who's upgrade potential might be effected by the large number of age 45 to 55 pilots at Delta.
I'm a 2007 hire holding domestic 767 in a warm weather base. I would hope there would be something to prevent similarly situated pilots from being blasted out of their base by a displaced DC-9 First Officer with 10 to 15 years' worth of seniority. In the case of displacements, the contract would have to be changed, or else folks like me might as well turn in our resignations now, to explain - Talking to the pilots in my class, most are planning on executing their second choice job option if the situation arises that NWA pilots can displace junior DAL guys as the DC-9's go away.
This will be a very good raise for the NWA guys. The folks that kept their pensions are getting their cake and eating it also.
Specifically, I'm not comparing pilot groups. But there is a large difference in opportunities available to the junior pilots at both airlines and this IS a deal changer. It is a lot easier to walk away before you have a whole lot of time invested. For now, I'll stay put and see how big the fences are.
Don't take anything I have written seriously. I DO expect some sort of protection and ALPA's effort at unity in this merger is the right thing to do. So don't let me stir the pot, or make anyone angry, I'm just offering ideas for discussion.
BTW - WOW - Good Article, thanks for posting this Corsair!
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 02-09-2008 at 10:08 AM.
02-09-2008, 09:55 AM
#5
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: B767 First Officer
Posts: 160
Bucking,
As a short history lesson, we had very good "no-furlough" language in our 2000 contract that ended up allowing 1200 guys to hit the street. There is only so much protection that can be written into a contract. That being said, I think DALPA will do what it can to protect its pilots but you have to manage your own expectations a bit.
Hopefully this all works out.
As a short history lesson, we had very good "no-furlough" language in our 2000 contract that ended up allowing 1200 guys to hit the street. There is only so much protection that can be written into a contract. That being said, I think DALPA will do what it can to protect its pilots but you have to manage your own expectations a bit.
Hopefully this all works out.
02-09-2008, 10:01 AM
#6
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Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: gear pulling specialist 75/76
Posts: 77
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
DOH, Fences, for the NWB 2007 hires, is my fairly well informed guess. It would need to be a pretty tall fence for the DAL guys since they are hiring into equipment that would be very senior (13 to 15 years) on the NWA property (wide body international - some 07 hires are holding ER lines). Also, NWA's small narrowbody fleet is shinking, reducing upgrade potential for DAL new hires. This was balanced by the demographics of the NWA pilots with more retirements coming up, but the age 65 rule negated some of that upgrade potential. The NWA guys say their age 60 crowd will retire, but at other airlines that has not been the case. We will have to see if there is some incentive that comes forward.
If ALPA gets something from the merger, I would like to see the union use that money to either buy the senior guys off the top of the list, or pay cash to the junior guys who are going to have their career expectations damaged by the merger. Buying the top NWA guys off their list would equalize the effect of the 2,000 Delta pilots that took an early retirement. It would be an equitable solution to the problem that this merger brings to the junior Delta pilots & to the NorthWest pilots who's upgrade potential might be effected by the large number of age 45 to 55 pilots at Delta.
I'm a 2007 hire holding domestic 767 in a warm weather base. I would hope there would be something to prevent similarly situated pilots from being blasted out of their base by a displaced DC-9 First Officer with 10 to 15 years' worth of seniority. In the case of displacements, the contract would have to be changed, or else folks like me might as well turn in our resignations now, to explain - Talking to the pilots in my class, most are planning on executing their second choice job option if the situation arises that NWA pilots can displace junior DAL guys as the DC-9's go away.
This will be a very good raise for the NWA guys. The folks that kept their pensions are getting their cake and eating it also.
Specifically, I'm not comparing pilot groups. But there is a large difference in opportunities available to the junior pilots at both airlines and this IS a deal changer. It is a lot easier to walk away before you have a whole lot of time invested. For now, I'll stay put and see how big the fences are.
Don't take anything I have written seriously. I DO expect some sort of protection and ALPA's effort at unity in this merger is the right thing to do. So don't let me stir the pot, or make anyone angry, I'm just offering ideas for discussion.
If ALPA gets something from the merger, I would like to see the union use that money to either buy the senior guys off the top of the list, or pay cash to the junior guys who are going to have their career expectations damaged by the merger. Buying the top NWA guys off their list would equalize the effect of the 2,000 Delta pilots that took an early retirement. It would be an equitable solution to the problem that this merger brings to the junior Delta pilots & to the NorthWest pilots who's upgrade potential might be effected by the large number of age 45 to 55 pilots at Delta.
I'm a 2007 hire holding domestic 767 in a warm weather base. I would hope there would be something to prevent similarly situated pilots from being blasted out of their base by a displaced DC-9 First Officer with 10 to 15 years' worth of seniority. In the case of displacements, the contract would have to be changed, or else folks like me might as well turn in our resignations now, to explain - Talking to the pilots in my class, most are planning on executing their second choice job option if the situation arises that NWA pilots can displace junior DAL guys as the DC-9's go away.
This will be a very good raise for the NWA guys. The folks that kept their pensions are getting their cake and eating it also.
Specifically, I'm not comparing pilot groups. But there is a large difference in opportunities available to the junior pilots at both airlines and this IS a deal changer. It is a lot easier to walk away before you have a whole lot of time invested. For now, I'll stay put and see how big the fences are.
Don't take anything I have written seriously. I DO expect some sort of protection and ALPA's effort at unity in this merger is the right thing to do. So don't let me stir the pot, or make anyone angry, I'm just offering ideas for discussion.
Some good points there. From the NW perspective, we do see the narrowbody flying (DC-9) decreasing, but most of the senior guys will probably depart on schedule at 60, if not before. The pension was frozen. They're not gonna add any more money to their retirement by sticking around longer.
With this in mind, NW has quite a few retirements coming up over the next 10 years. Even if the economy tanks, there should still be movement. Delta is hiring for an intl expansion. When the growth stops, the upward movement stops. Retirements don't factor in anytime soon.
I would expect that NW/DALPA would try to make a merged list as fair as possible to avoid a mutiny. No bump, etc... I don't think there will be a windfall for any one group. (At least I hope not.)
I'm trying to be optimistic about this!
02-09-2008, 10:05 AM
#7
Speed, Power, Accuracy
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: PIC
Posts: 1,699
Originally Posted by Corsair II
Delta, Northwest Focus
n Joint Pilot Contract
By SUSAN CAREY and PAULO PRADA -- WSJ
February 9, 2008
The role of Doug Steenland, Northwest's chief executive officer, in a merged company has been resolved, two people familiar with the discussions said. While Mr. Steenland wouldn't be a member of the executive management team
Write to Susan Carey at susan.careywsj.com and Paulo Prada at paulo.pradawsj.com
n Joint Pilot Contract By SUSAN CAREY and PAULO PRADA -- WSJ
February 9, 2008
The role of Doug Steenland, Northwest's chief executive officer, in a merged company has been resolved, two people familiar with the discussions said. While Mr. Steenland wouldn't be a member of the executive management team
Write to Susan Carey at susan.carey
wsj.com and Paulo Prada at paulo.pradawsj.comThis is the BEST news in the article for all concerned. Good luck with the rest.
02-09-2008, 10:06 AM
#8
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 11,989
Flare - You are sure right. I'm already getting the interview lined up for option 2. But whenever I admit that the NWA guys get angry.
It is true, Delta was a First Choice, NWA wasn't even a consideration. The second choice job I passed up might be a whole lot better than a DAL/NWA combo platter.
With regard to the furloughs, NWA has a flown down to Compass / Mesaba. Not that I'm wanting to go back, but wonder if that would be preserved with a list that is 2/3rd's larger? I just thought it was dumb that ALPA did not staple the ASA/Comair guys and protect the Delta pilots with One List. There were four times the number of DCI pilots hired as there were DAL furloughs and the two numbers were related to some degree.
It is true, Delta was a First Choice, NWA wasn't even a consideration. The second choice job I passed up might be a whole lot better than a DAL/NWA combo platter.
With regard to the furloughs, NWA has a flown down to Compass / Mesaba. Not that I'm wanting to go back, but wonder if that would be preserved with a list that is 2/3rd's larger? I just thought it was dumb that ALPA did not staple the ASA/Comair guys and protect the Delta pilots with One List. There were four times the number of DCI pilots hired as there were DAL furloughs and the two numbers were related to some degree.
02-09-2008, 10:20 AM
#9
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2006
Position: Work
Posts: 506
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
(DOH, Fences, for the NWB 2007 hires) and ratio above, is my fairly well informed guess. It would need to be a pretty tall fence for the DAL guys since they are hiring into equipment that would be very senior (13 to 15 years) on the NWA property (wide body international - some 07 hires are holding ER lines). Also, NWA's small narrowbody fleet is shinking, reducing upgrade potential for DAL new hires. This was balanced by the demographics of the NWA pilots with more retirements coming up, but the age 65 rule negated some of that upgrade potential. The NWA guys say their age 60 crowd will retire, but at other airlines that has not been the case. We will have to see if there is some incentive that comes forward.
If ALPA gets something from the merger, I would like to see the union use that money to either buy the senior guys off the top of the list, or pay cash to the junior guys who are going to have their career expectations damaged by the merger. Buying the top NWA guys off their list would equalize the effect of the 2,000 Delta pilots that took an early retirement. It would be an equitable solution to the problem that this merger brings to the junior Delta pilots & to the NorthWest pilots who's upgrade potential might be effected by the large number of age 45 to 55 pilots at Delta.
I'm a 2007 hire holding domestic 767 in a warm weather base. I would hope there would be something to prevent similarly situated pilots from being blasted out of their base by a displaced DC-9 First Officer with 10 to 15 years' worth of seniority. In the case of displacements, the contract would have to be changed, or else folks like me might as well turn in our resignations now, to explain - Talking to the pilots in my class, most are planning on executing their second choice job option if the situation arises that NWA pilots can displace junior DAL guys as the DC-9's go away.
This will be a very good raise for the NWA guys. The folks that kept their pensions are getting their cake and eating it also.
Specifically, I'm not comparing pilot groups. But there is a large difference in opportunities available to the junior pilots at both airlines and this IS a deal changer. It is a lot easier to walk away before you have a whole lot of time invested. For now, I'll stay put and see how big the fences are.
Don't take anything I have written seriously. I DO expect some sort of protection and ALPA's effort at unity in this merger is the right thing to do. So don't let me stir the pot, or make anyone angry, I'm just offering ideas for discussion.
BTW - WOW - Good Article, thanks for posting this Corsair!
If ALPA gets something from the merger, I would like to see the union use that money to either buy the senior guys off the top of the list, or pay cash to the junior guys who are going to have their career expectations damaged by the merger. Buying the top NWA guys off their list would equalize the effect of the 2,000 Delta pilots that took an early retirement. It would be an equitable solution to the problem that this merger brings to the junior Delta pilots & to the NorthWest pilots who's upgrade potential might be effected by the large number of age 45 to 55 pilots at Delta.
I'm a 2007 hire holding domestic 767 in a warm weather base. I would hope there would be something to prevent similarly situated pilots from being blasted out of their base by a displaced DC-9 First Officer with 10 to 15 years' worth of seniority. In the case of displacements, the contract would have to be changed, or else folks like me might as well turn in our resignations now, to explain - Talking to the pilots in my class, most are planning on executing their second choice job option if the situation arises that NWA pilots can displace junior DAL guys as the DC-9's go away.
This will be a very good raise for the NWA guys. The folks that kept their pensions are getting their cake and eating it also.
Specifically, I'm not comparing pilot groups. But there is a large difference in opportunities available to the junior pilots at both airlines and this IS a deal changer. It is a lot easier to walk away before you have a whole lot of time invested. For now, I'll stay put and see how big the fences are.
Don't take anything I have written seriously. I DO expect some sort of protection and ALPA's effort at unity in this merger is the right thing to do. So don't let me stir the pot, or make anyone angry, I'm just offering ideas for discussion.
BTW - WOW - Good Article, thanks for posting this Corsair!
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