Delta to stand alone?
02-27-2008, 07:40 AM
#71
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Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 403
[quote=Justdoinmyjob;328787]
Better be careful using that phrase. Your buddy Zoomie just tried to flame me for using that very one. I guess that means you want to "cornhole" someone too.
The difference between your statement and his statement is that he is merely acknowledging that people have different "career expectations".
You are arguing that "career expectations" should all be factored into a merger. There are too many variables to consider.
One of my points is that you consider 9/11 a variable, whereas I say it shouldn't even be in the equation.
Originally Posted by Eric Stratton
Better be careful using that phrase. Your buddy Zoomie just tried to flame me for using that very one. I guess that means you want to "cornhole" someone too.
You are arguing that "career expectations" should all be factored into a merger. There are too many variables to consider.
One of my points is that you consider 9/11 a variable, whereas I say it shouldn't even be in the equation.
02-27-2008, 07:43 AM
#72
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Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: G550 Captain
Posts: 1,206
Originally Posted by StripAlert
The problem with the entire NWA argument in all this is that it's completely based on a big crystal ball theory. "We're going to get 68 787's and a bunch of 744's." "1,000 senior guys will retire in the next 5 years at age 60." "We were going to get a big pay raise at the next contract negotiation anyway." "We're going to hire a lot more guys any day now."
Delta's contract is open in 2010, and we'd like to use that as an opportunity to improve our own pay, thank you very much. By various reports, the "deal" that's on the table would have NWA pilots getting a 30% pay raise to match our current pay and then lock us all into a 7%, 4%, 4%, and 4% annual raise for the next four years. Great for NWA pilots--you get a big bump in pay and didn't really even have to negotiate for it, and your contract is only extended by a year, at which point you (we) can try to get the rest of it back. Meanwhile, the Delta guys get locked into a tiny raise and can't do anything about it for another 3 years.
In addition to gaining access to all Delta's widebody equipment (actual physical airplanes in service right now or on very short delivery timeframes) and nice bases, the NWA pilots want seniority based upon the theory of all those guys choosing to go at 60. I say don't underestimate the power of greed necessitated by poor financial decisions earlier in life. Delta has good opportunites for junior and mid-seniority pilots now, plus movement (from expansion). Northwest just has the promise of movement (from retirements) and good opportunites (from purchases) in the future.
I don't have a dog in the pre-9/11 flight, but I'll say that I see no reason why a NWA new hire that started class in November should be senior to any Delta new hire in class in October. You guys are basing this on a whole lot of assumptions. I'm pretty happy with the way things are now, here in the real world, not some fantasy land with the promise of a cornucopia of retirees and $175 million airplanes purchased during an ecomnomic downturn, and I could care less if superpilot92 has already figured out that he would've retired at number 23 sometime in 2045 and feels slighted by the 700 Delta new hires that would be on the seniority list in front of him. You guys are all for DOH, except for the only group where it makes actual sense--the new hires. Sorry but, "I thought for 6 months that I'd be in the top one-hundred 30 years from now," doesn't qualify as a "career expectation" in my book. We'll all be lucky if we're still working for either of these companies then.
Take the rose-colored glasses off boys. You've got a bunch of old airplanes and euro-trash in frigid bases with a bunch of greedy old captains ahead of you, and everything else is just wishful thinking. I sincerely hope you guys get everything you think you've got coming in the next 5-10 years, but please don't ask Delta pilots to give up the great thing that's actually here now for the promise of it.
Delta's contract is open in 2010, and we'd like to use that as an opportunity to improve our own pay, thank you very much. By various reports, the "deal" that's on the table would have NWA pilots getting a 30% pay raise to match our current pay and then lock us all into a 7%, 4%, 4%, and 4% annual raise for the next four years. Great for NWA pilots--you get a big bump in pay and didn't really even have to negotiate for it, and your contract is only extended by a year, at which point you (we) can try to get the rest of it back. Meanwhile, the Delta guys get locked into a tiny raise and can't do anything about it for another 3 years.
In addition to gaining access to all Delta's widebody equipment (actual physical airplanes in service right now or on very short delivery timeframes) and nice bases, the NWA pilots want seniority based upon the theory of all those guys choosing to go at 60. I say don't underestimate the power of greed necessitated by poor financial decisions earlier in life. Delta has good opportunites for junior and mid-seniority pilots now, plus movement (from expansion). Northwest just has the promise of movement (from retirements) and good opportunites (from purchases) in the future.
I don't have a dog in the pre-9/11 flight, but I'll say that I see no reason why a NWA new hire that started class in November should be senior to any Delta new hire in class in October. You guys are basing this on a whole lot of assumptions. I'm pretty happy with the way things are now, here in the real world, not some fantasy land with the promise of a cornucopia of retirees and $175 million airplanes purchased during an ecomnomic downturn, and I could care less if superpilot92 has already figured out that he would've retired at number 23 sometime in 2045 and feels slighted by the 700 Delta new hires that would be on the seniority list in front of him. You guys are all for DOH, except for the only group where it makes actual sense--the new hires. Sorry but, "I thought for 6 months that I'd be in the top one-hundred 30 years from now," doesn't qualify as a "career expectation" in my book. We'll all be lucky if we're still working for either of these companies then.
Take the rose-colored glasses off boys. You've got a bunch of old airplanes and euro-trash in frigid bases with a bunch of greedy old captains ahead of you, and everything else is just wishful thinking. I sincerely hope you guys get everything you think you've got coming in the next 5-10 years, but please don't ask Delta pilots to give up the great thing that's actually here now for the promise of it.
I find it very entertaining how some people think they will be flying for the next 38 years. No one knows what future will bring let alone what will happen 10 years from now. I've seen my share of senior pilots who can't seem to pass their First Class physicals and they are not even 58 years old. One senior NWA CA told me that there are over 37 senior NWA CAs based out of DTW on medical leave. According to the FAA studies, we are all exposed to high doses of radiation due to high altitude flying that we do, and this is even worse if you do transoceanic flying especially to Europe or Asia. According to these studies, most pilots who have flown any significant part of their lives (20 or more years) have a greater risk of coming down with some form of cancer later in their lives. I have personally witnessed 3 retired UAL CAs, including a good friend of my mentor, die of cancer within 5 years after their retirement at age 60.
As pilots at the bottom of the seniority you really don't have the clout to change how the seniority will be merged between NWA and DAL. You can safely bet that the senior CAs at both NWA and DAL will not give an inch and in the final account, the junior pilots will wind up holding the bag.
02-27-2008, 07:43 AM
#73
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Joined APC: Apr 2006
Position: Against
Posts: 275
Bottom line is that there isn't enough benefit to any Delta pilot in the contract part of this deal to justify integrating the seniority list in any reasonable fashion, DOH, ratio, or whatever. Hell, you might be hard-pressed to get the Delta pilot group to sign off on a staple in exchange for what amounts to very little contractual gain, given all the strife that would accompany this SLI in comparison to our very promising stand-alone plan.
Without a ludicrous windfall to both groups at the expense of the combined company, there isn't really anything more to discuss regarding SLI. They will have to do better if they want us all to play nice and rubber stamp this--or any other--merger plan, IMO.
Without a ludicrous windfall to both groups at the expense of the combined company, there isn't really anything more to discuss regarding SLI. They will have to do better if they want us all to play nice and rubber stamp this--or any other--merger plan, IMO.
02-27-2008, 07:44 AM
#74
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Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 403
Originally Posted by Justdoinmyjob
So, you're arguing a hypothetical when you argee with what is actually on the table? 
Seems to me that your merger committe DID turn it down.
I know I said I wasn't going to post anymore, but I maybe I won't now.
Seems to me that your merger committe DID turn it down.I know I said I wasn't going to post anymore, but I maybe I won't now.
02-27-2008, 07:45 AM
#75
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Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: 330Fo
Posts: 215
Man, the arrogance I am hearing from the DAL guys makes me hope we don't merge either. To have to fly with this premadonna mindset. First, stripalert, get your facts right. We already have 747-400s, we're not ordering them. Second, we have more widebody flying than DAL. Third, nationwide, the average percentage of pilots (all carriers according to ALPA) that make it to 60 is less than 40%. Fourth, you can't just expand in the pacific and nor can American, Continental or anybody else. It's called the 1952 bilateral rights. Which only NWA, United via Pan Am and FedEx via flying tigers have. Thus, the profitable hub and spoke out of NRT is not available to DAL. Finally, the DAL seniority lists does not match up with any other list in the industry. So, you advocate going it alone, great, I hope you like your current position because you have zero attrition, until what, 2014! We just lost 119 guys in the last six months.
And this may come as a huge blow to your ego but there are a lot of us who would have absolutely no desire to be based in either NY or ATL.
And this may come as a huge blow to your ego but there are a lot of us who would have absolutely no desire to be based in either NY or ATL.
02-27-2008, 07:48 AM
#76
Looking for a laugh
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,099
[quote=Zoomie;328799]
No, I'm just using it to delineate a point on the seniority list from the simple fact that it is a common date from which neither airline hired after until 2007. What is the last hire date in 2001 for NW? I believe DLs last class was in July. We can use that date instead if it will make you feel better.
Originally Posted by Justdoinmyjob
One of my points is that you consider 9/11 a variable, whereas I say it shouldn't even be in the equation.
02-27-2008, 07:50 AM
#77
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Joined APC: Apr 2006
Position: Against
Posts: 275
Originally Posted by Opus
So, you advocate going it alone, great, I hope you like your current position because you have zero attrition, until what, 2014! We just lost 119 guys in the last six months.
02-27-2008, 07:54 AM
#78
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
It works, but if some do not agree to a total redo of the SLI, then just fence those guys that are to retire in the next 10 years to their current airlines aircraft.( Two or more types will be around from each airlines fleet to make this doable)
I think that deliveries should be left off the table and are open to anyone.
I think that deliveries should be left off the table and are open to anyone.
02-27-2008, 07:56 AM
#79
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Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 403
Originally Posted by Justdoinmyjob
I'm actually fine with what life has dealt me. The only thing I perceive as a pre 9/11 hire is to NOT have a post 9/11 hire placed senior to me. Do you have a problem with that?
02-27-2008, 07:59 AM
#80
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Joined APC: Apr 2006
Position: Against
Posts: 275
Originally Posted by Opus
We already have 747-400s, we're not ordering them.
Last edited by StripAlert; 02-27-2008 at 08:29 AM.
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