Delta Only contract?
04-09-2008, 03:54 PM
#41
Works Every Weekend
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: 737 ATL
Posts: 3,506
Originally Posted by AV8ER13
I didnt say whether DAL or NWA's proposed mergerd list was better, what I said is if one side feels they get more of a say then that is what is wrong. And you say NWA wanted one more benefit, Again, I am not saying which is better (I am playind devils advocate), but did the NWA pilots not earn senority through DOH. Tell me its fair that a guy who has less yrs of service with either company gets to be more senior at the new company just b.c. their pilot group bailed when they could. Vice versa, it sucks have great senority and being told by someone who has a high DOH that he is going to push you down. Both angles SUCK! I dont get a say, I am a recent new hire at NWA and I know where I fall on the SLI. What makes me frustrated is reading that you feel b.c. you work for DAL that you vote counts more than mine (even though I do not have one now). You know what I mean, this threat was not started as a bash on DAL or NWA, the thread was about an article saying DAL mgmt is trying to agree only with DAL pilots and leave NWA out. Thats not fair, and I would be heart broken if any DAL pilot that thinks thats fair!
The Delta pilots are not happy that it has turned out this way. There is a heated debate going on right now on the Delta ALPA message board about the wisdom of proceeding without the NWA pilots and the long term consequences of doing so. It was NOT our first choice.
However, a consensus seems to be developing that the NWA MEC has left us with no other choice. The merger train is leaving the station. We either get on board or get run over. The Delta MEC is now going to act in the long term best interests of the pilots they represent. I'm sure you would expect no less from your leadership.
Our votes do NOT count more than yours and you are NOT being "left out". Your MEC has chosen a strategy that delays your participation to a later date. That is their right. I'm not sure if that will prove to be a good move or not but that is the path your leaders have chosen.
04-09-2008, 03:58 PM
#42
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: A320 CA
Posts: 973
Originally Posted by kmpflyer
Ladies and Gentlemen,
DALPA worked very hard to reach consensus with NWALPA. They bent over backward to be "fair". Bringing NWA immediately up to Delta payrates, DC contribution percentages, and work rules are examples. There was no transition. It was immediate and DALPA got nothing in return. NWALPA, OTOH, tried to get a "win" at every opportunity. When the two sides couldn't find a mutually acceptable position, each side then was on its own to do the best it could.
And thats where we sit.
DALPA worked very hard to reach consensus with NWALPA. They bent over backward to be "fair". Bringing NWA immediately up to Delta payrates, DC contribution percentages, and work rules are examples. There was no transition. It was immediate and DALPA got nothing in return. NWALPA, OTOH, tried to get a "win" at every opportunity. When the two sides couldn't find a mutually acceptable position, each side then was on its own to do the best it could.
And thats where we sit.
04-09-2008, 04:12 PM
#43
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2005
Position: 767ER capt
Posts: 1,190
Originally Posted by Superpilot92
It always make me giggle that you DAL guys always leave out the part about you parking planes and that the md80s are just as at risk as our dc9s.
The MD88s/90s are also much newer, which translates to a much lower maintenance expense per block hour. In other words, although DC9s and MD88s look similar, they're very different.
I think the economics of the DC9 are rapidly heading south, and that's one of the biggest things I'm afraid of with this deal.
04-09-2008, 04:23 PM
#44
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: 737A
Posts: 1,890
I certainly don't deny that the 9 is a fuel hog, however, it is good to have the ability to fly a 100 seat airplane (with no lease payment) in a market that only supports 100 seats. No sense driving 142 seats and an extra flight attendant there when only 80-90 seats are getting paid for. Yes they need to be replaced with a more fuel efficient 100 seater, but I don't see that happening anytime soon. I hope that we are all smart enough to prevent them being replaced by a regional affiliate.
04-09-2008, 04:26 PM
#45
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: A320 CA
Posts: 973
[QUOTE=CVG767A;359606]The MD88s/90s are also much newer, which translates to a much lower maintenance expense per block hour. In other words, although DC9s and MD88s look similar, they're very different.
QUOTE]
That is so true....both DAL and AMR can tell you about the lower maintenance cost that comes from grounding their DC-9-80s for AD inspections
QUOTE]
That is so true....both DAL and AMR can tell you about the lower maintenance cost that comes from grounding their DC-9-80s for AD inspections
04-09-2008, 04:39 PM
#46
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: 88B - Loud Pipes Save Lives
Posts: 1,597
Originally Posted by AV8ER13
I didnt say whether DAL or NWA's proposed mergerd list was better, what I said is if one side feels they get more of a say then that is what is wrong. And you say NWA wanted one more benefit, Again, I am not saying which is better (I am playind devils advocate), but did the NWA pilots not earn senority through DOH. Tell me its fair that a guy who has less yrs of service with either company gets to be more senior at the new company just b.c. their pilot group bailed when they could. Vice versa, it sucks have great senority and being told by someone who has a high DOH that he is going to push you down.
04-09-2008, 05:12 PM
#47
Super Moderator
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: DAL 330
Posts: 6,888
Originally Posted by Scoop
This is one of the problems - airplanes. Just today it was announced that the 787 got delayed again. NW is shrinking, DAL is stagnent (parking some jets, but orders coming in as we speak to cancel this out). Where are all the DC-9 FO's going to go when they are parked? They will bump DAL FO's. NW has stopped hiring, is receiving no aircraft, and is parking aircraft. Yes there will be retirements and aircraft in the future but how many and when? Today NW is shrinking and DAL is not. DAL will also have more aircraft orders and pilot retirements in the future.
Originally posted by superpilot
So its ok to talk about your future business model but its not ok to talk about ours? Look at what you typed.
I am looking at it - did you?
I personally do not like the idea of a seperate contract for DAL but from what I have heard from the MEC - the DAL pilots have been very reasonable so far and the NW MEC from the start has been very aggresive in its demands. I just hope we can work this out instead of being forced into a shotgun marriage type of agreement.
Scoop
Originally posted by superpilot
It always make me giggle that you DAL guys always leave out the part about you parking planes and that the md80s are just as at risk as our dc9s.
Super,
I guess you must have missed that part - I bolded it for you. I guess you also missed the part where I said there will be NW pilot retirements and aircraft orders in the future. The point is that it won't do the junior DAL FO's any good when they are furloughed to make room for displaced DC-9 FO's while we are all waiting for the 787 to be delivered. You guys are counting on an aircraft that has to fly and equating it equally to the 777's and 737's we are currently receiving. I repeat - I hope this can be worked out harmoniously between both MEC's or else it will be like the Hatfield's and McCoy's (or USAIR) in a few years at DAL.
Scoop
This is one of the problems - airplanes. Just today it was announced that the 787 got delayed again. NW is shrinking, DAL is stagnent (parking some jets, but orders coming in as we speak to cancel this out). Where are all the DC-9 FO's going to go when they are parked? They will bump DAL FO's. NW has stopped hiring, is receiving no aircraft, and is parking aircraft. Yes there will be retirements and aircraft in the future but how many and when? Today NW is shrinking and DAL is not. DAL will also have more aircraft orders and pilot retirements in the future.
Originally posted by superpilot
So its ok to talk about your future business model but its not ok to talk about ours? Look at what you typed.
I am looking at it - did you?
I personally do not like the idea of a seperate contract for DAL but from what I have heard from the MEC - the DAL pilots have been very reasonable so far and the NW MEC from the start has been very aggresive in its demands. I just hope we can work this out instead of being forced into a shotgun marriage type of agreement.
Scoop
Originally posted by superpilot
It always make me giggle that you DAL guys always leave out the part about you parking planes and that the md80s are just as at risk as our dc9s.
Super,
I guess you must have missed that part - I bolded it for you. I guess you also missed the part where I said there will be NW pilot retirements and aircraft orders in the future. The point is that it won't do the junior DAL FO's any good when they are furloughed to make room for displaced DC-9 FO's while we are all waiting for the 787 to be delivered. You guys are counting on an aircraft that has to fly and equating it equally to the 777's and 737's we are currently receiving. I repeat - I hope this can be worked out harmoniously between both MEC's or else it will be like the Hatfield's and McCoy's (or USAIR) in a few years at DAL.
Scoop
Last edited by Scoop; 04-09-2008 at 05:53 PM.
04-09-2008, 05:52 PM
#48
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
All of this DC-9 crap will be figured out so that is accounted for pre merger or post merger in a new PWA.
Junior DAL guys will not be thrown under the bus to make a deal. At least that is what our reps are saying :O
Junior DAL guys will not be thrown under the bus to make a deal. At least that is what our reps are saying :O
04-10-2008, 06:37 AM
#49
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: NWA 747-200 SO
Posts: 129
Originally Posted by Check Essential
AV8ER-
The Delta pilots are not happy that it has turned out this way. There is a heated debate going on right now on the Delta ALPA message board about the wisdom of proceeding without the NWA pilots and the long term consequences of doing so. It was NOT our first choice.
However, a consensus seems to be developing that the NWA MEC has left us with no other choice. The merger train is leaving the station. We either get on board or get run over. The Delta MEC is now going to act in the long term best interests of the pilots they represent. I'm sure you would expect no less from your leadership.
Our votes do NOT count more than yours and you are NOT being "left out". Your MEC has chosen a strategy that delays your participation to a later date. That is their right. I'm not sure if that will prove to be a good move or not but that is the path your leaders have chosen.
The Delta pilots are not happy that it has turned out this way. There is a heated debate going on right now on the Delta ALPA message board about the wisdom of proceeding without the NWA pilots and the long term consequences of doing so. It was NOT our first choice.
However, a consensus seems to be developing that the NWA MEC has left us with no other choice. The merger train is leaving the station. We either get on board or get run over. The Delta MEC is now going to act in the long term best interests of the pilots they represent. I'm sure you would expect no less from your leadership.
Our votes do NOT count more than yours and you are NOT being "left out". Your MEC has chosen a strategy that delays your participation to a later date. That is their right. I'm not sure if that will prove to be a good move or not but that is the path your leaders have chosen.
04-10-2008, 06:56 AM
#50
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: NWA 747-200 SO
Posts: 129
Let me ask you to put yourself in someone else’s shoes. Now we all know that each other’s MEC has to do what is best for their pilot group. I would hope that our MEC’s would use a level mind and realize that there has to be some give and take, in order for us all to get a fair deal. Someone said on here once, the only way we will know that a merged SLI was fair, is if we all feel like we got screwed. This is b.c. we all have to give a little to get more.
None of us (or I am assuming) are on the Neg. comm., therefore we do not have control over what is being proposed or neg. We are powerless, yes I can tell my rep what I feel or think, but it doesn’t mean that right now they are doing what I asked (I hope that they would).
So let me ask you to step into the shoes of the other side, pls make sure that when you are neg. or voting you consider the other group. How much would you feel like you got screwed if the other side got more just b.c. mgmt wanted to play us against each other? I would hate to see a situation where DAL pilots get more just b.c. their companies name is going to be used and mgmt decided to just neg. with them. Think about how you would feel…Unified we must stand or we will fail.
We all want to be happy, buy pls do not be greedy at the expense of someone else. Pls do not bunch the other side into a classification b.c. you heard a rumor about what the other side may have proposed. I like to think I have been pretty neutral, I have only said, I hope one side doesn’t purposely screw the other side just so they can make out better for themselves. I would like to think we have learned from the history of previous mergers and we are not doomed to repeat it.
None of us (or I am assuming) are on the Neg. comm., therefore we do not have control over what is being proposed or neg. We are powerless, yes I can tell my rep what I feel or think, but it doesn’t mean that right now they are doing what I asked (I hope that they would).
So let me ask you to step into the shoes of the other side, pls make sure that when you are neg. or voting you consider the other group. How much would you feel like you got screwed if the other side got more just b.c. mgmt wanted to play us against each other? I would hate to see a situation where DAL pilots get more just b.c. their companies name is going to be used and mgmt decided to just neg. with them. Think about how you would feel…Unified we must stand or we will fail.
We all want to be happy, buy pls do not be greedy at the expense of someone else. Pls do not bunch the other side into a classification b.c. you heard a rumor about what the other side may have proposed. I like to think I have been pretty neutral, I have only said, I hope one side doesn’t purposely screw the other side just so they can make out better for themselves. I would like to think we have learned from the history of previous mergers and we are not doomed to repeat it.
Last edited by AV8ER13; 04-10-2008 at 07:37 AM. Reason: text size
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