Delta Only contract?
04-09-2008, 12:19 PM
#21
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Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
True.
I think it is easy to see that DALPA is not playing by the ALPA play book of the past. This whole notion is a new idea. Get it done, hug and get on with it before the deal is announced. In theory it sounded good. Too bad both sides did not see it that way.
Even before the seniority lists were thrown together and compared, I though that relative seniority was the way to go. It makes the most sense. Keeps me in my seat you in yours. We are not penalized if we choose to move. I know for a fact with out an accountant or lawyer that what I see in my number will hold true for the rest of my career. Slotted or a re-renegotiated list in five to ten years does not.
Look at it this way. If we do this and get a new agreement and wait for NWA's section six to deal with the SLI, at least the top guys will be gone or on the way out making DOH or relative seniority a non issue.
I think it is easy to see that DALPA is not playing by the ALPA play book of the past. This whole notion is a new idea. Get it done, hug and get on with it before the deal is announced. In theory it sounded good. Too bad both sides did not see it that way.
Even before the seniority lists were thrown together and compared, I though that relative seniority was the way to go. It makes the most sense. Keeps me in my seat you in yours. We are not penalized if we choose to move. I know for a fact with out an accountant or lawyer that what I see in my number will hold true for the rest of my career. Slotted or a re-renegotiated list in five to ten years does not.
Look at it this way. If we do this and get a new agreement and wait for NWA's section six to deal with the SLI, at least the top guys will be gone or on the way out making DOH or relative seniority a non issue.
04-09-2008, 12:20 PM
#22
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Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
They could of, but they wanted to keep the peace. If they would have done that we would not have been consulted first.
It may end up that way, but we are trying to find an easier softer way. But some could not and will not do this.
It may end up that way, but we are trying to find an easier softer way. But some could not and will not do this.
04-09-2008, 12:25 PM
#23
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Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: NWA 747-200 SO
Posts: 129
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
Even before the seniority lists were thrown together and compared, I though that relative seniority was the way to go. It makes the most sense. Keeps me in my seat you in yours. We are not penalized if we choose to move. I know for a fact with out an accountant or lawyer that what I see in my number will hold true for the rest of my career. Slotted or a re-renegotiated list in five to ten years does not.
Look at it this way. If we do this and get a new agreement and wait for NWA's section six to deal with the SLI, at least the top guys will be gone or on the way out making DOH or relative seniority a non issue.
Look at it this way. If we do this and get a new agreement and wait for NWA's section six to deal with the SLI, at least the top guys will be gone or on the way out making DOH or relative seniority a non issue.
04-09-2008, 12:29 PM
#24
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Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: DAL 330
Posts: 6,869
Originally Posted by AV8ER13
Did you net get a stronger company with more cash? Remember, NWA Pilots are at stake as well, You didnt get 3 billion in cash, routes, airplanes, etc. without the NWA pilots. So, if there was to be a merger, it was inevitable that NWA would be brought up to atleast your current contract. Did you think they would merge and then tell you that you were going down to our contract? NO, and to get all the pilots on board the company approved certain contract improvements. Whether it was neg by DAL or NWA, but this doesnt mean DAL bent over backwards to help NWA. Mgmt did by not telling you werer coming down to our contract.
I personally do not like the idea of a seperate contract for DAL but from what I have heard from the MEC - the DAL pilots have been very reasonable so far and the NW MEC from the start has been very aggresive in its demands. I just hope we can work this out instead of being forced into a shotgun marriage type of agreement.
Scoop
04-09-2008, 12:37 PM
#25
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Posts: 18,563
If it is a relative list then you only have one number. It works like the one you have now. No one can bump you off category unless there is a displacement bid. This might actually help the NWA 9 guys get to where they want to be. RA and Co said no fences which means just that. You can bid what you want as long as there is an opening.
04-09-2008, 12:39 PM
#26
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Joined APC: Sep 2007
Posts: 9
Originally Posted by AV8ER13
Did you not get a stronger company with more cash? Remember, NWA Pilots are at stake as well, You didnt get 3 billion in cash, routes, airplanes, etc. without the NWA pilots.
Originally Posted by AV8ER13
So, if there was to be a merger, it was inevitable that NWA would be brought up to at least your current contract.
04-09-2008, 12:59 PM
#28
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Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: NWA 747-200 SO
Posts: 129
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
If it is a relative list then you only have one number. It works like the one you have now. No one can bump you off category unless there is a displacement bid. This might actually help the NWA 9 guys get to where they want to be. RA and Co said no fences which means just that. You can bid what you want as long as there is an opening.
04-09-2008, 01:03 PM
#29
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Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: 88B - Loud Pipes Save Lives
Posts: 1,597
Originally Posted by AV8ER13
How does DALPA hold the high cards or what are you referring to as high cards?
On a seperate issue, I would like to clarify something, reading all the posts I have gotten lost,
So Delta wants a relative list, meaning if you are 1000 then you should be equal in a joint merged list.
NWA wants a DOH list meaning you maybe 1000 but you may have several more yrs of DOH then 1000 at DAL.
If this is correct, then where is the stapling that NWA supposedly wants? I am not trying to spark anything here, I am just trying to figure out what is being accused and said. I understand both sides of not wanting one or the other.
If Delta pilots tried to accept a contract that was only beneficial to them, that would be a slap in the face to the other pilot group? I would hope there is more mature approaches and they would not screw the other group like that. Just b.c. it is thought one group holds more cards, doesn't mean you should deminish the others quality of life. Everyone is agreed (or atleast I hope) that everyone is going to feel screwed by this, but if its lopsided (or one group goes out of their way (by accepting a one sided contract) to screw the others), I can say there will be a lot of hostility. THAT IS NOT GOOD, again remeber we SHOULD be unified, not split! Again, I hope a more Mature approach and logic would be used by both sides!
On a seperate issue, I would like to clarify something, reading all the posts I have gotten lost,
So Delta wants a relative list, meaning if you are 1000 then you should be equal in a joint merged list.
NWA wants a DOH list meaning you maybe 1000 but you may have several more yrs of DOH then 1000 at DAL.
If this is correct, then where is the stapling that NWA supposedly wants? I am not trying to spark anything here, I am just trying to figure out what is being accused and said. I understand both sides of not wanting one or the other.
If Delta pilots tried to accept a contract that was only beneficial to them, that would be a slap in the face to the other pilot group? I would hope there is more mature approaches and they would not screw the other group like that. Just b.c. it is thought one group holds more cards, doesn't mean you should deminish the others quality of life. Everyone is agreed (or atleast I hope) that everyone is going to feel screwed by this, but if its lopsided (or one group goes out of their way (by accepting a one sided contract) to screw the others), I can say there will be a lot of hostility. THAT IS NOT GOOD, again remeber we SHOULD be unified, not split! Again, I hope a more Mature approach and logic would be used by both sides!
04-09-2008, 01:05 PM
#30
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: NWA 747-200 SO
Posts: 129
Originally Posted by kmpflyer
And more debt, and gas guzzling old airplanes, and an underfunded pension. Are we stronger? Not sure. Really? USAir is STILL below AWA payrates. Nothing is "inevitable"; its all negotiated. And that takes leverage, and there's only so much money to go around. Do you disagree that more cash went to NW pilots than DAL pilots to harmonize the contracts?
And I think we do not see eye to eye on your gain, yes NWA pilots get more money (b.c. our contract pay rates are behind yours for now), but you also get a pay raise, a raise that would not happen without a merger. If DAL pilots take a contract without NWA pilots getting the same day 1, then you can be assured I will oppose any merger and will lobby DOJ and political officicials to stop/block a merger. You are saying its better to Divide each other so you (DAL) can gain, with or without NWA pilots. I am saying lets all be unified and then move on. Without it we are all doomed to fail.
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