NWA ALPA's Take on the Merger
04-18-2008, 02:49 PM
#161
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by Scoop
Carl,
Are you sure about that? How much did NW make last quarter? It seems the more any airline flies these days the more money they lose.
Scoop
Are you sure about that? How much did NW make last quarter? It seems the more any airline flies these days the more money they lose.
Scoop
Carl
04-18-2008, 03:33 PM
#162
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,002
Originally Posted by Jay5150
Here you go again...
I didn't say orders. I wasn't referring to some future order book for a plane that hasn't flown yet. I said taking deliveries. As in now, right now, this year with real airplanes. 2 777's which have just been delivered and 10 737's that start arriving in June.
I didn't say orders. I wasn't referring to some future order book for a plane that hasn't flown yet. I said taking deliveries. As in now, right now, this year with real airplanes. 2 777's which have just been delivered and 10 737's that start arriving in June.
the 787 were to be delivered aug 08 that's 2 months after your 10 737's start. due to delays that has been pushed back at least a year but they aren't imaginary like you want to make out.
it's like talking to politicians with all of this spin
04-18-2008, 03:36 PM
#163
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,002
Originally Posted by Jay5150
Sorry Carl, I ain't buying it. If the NWA contract had such language then what difference does it make who's the aquiring carrier. It's my understanding that no such language exists in the NWA contract (or at the very least not to the extent of DAL's) and that's why DALPA was approached. I don't have your contract to read but how would DAL being the "aquiring" carrier make any part of your contract void?
04-18-2008, 04:04 PM
#165
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Position: 330 FO
Posts: 584
Originally Posted by Eric Stratton
the 787 were to be delivered aug 08 that's 2 months after your 10 737's start. due to delays that has been pushed back at least a year but they aren't imaginary like you want to make out.
How is that imaginary. We are talking about what's going on now, are we not? These aircraft deliveries are not spin, they are fact. Why do you continually add to or put words in my mouth?
Jesus, Eric. Did some DAL guy do you or your family wrong somewhere. You talk about spin but I've never seen a guy so blindly devoted to a pilot group that he is not even a part of.
04-18-2008, 04:18 PM
#166
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
I am amused at some of the comments from Delta people about how the NWA pilot's leverage evaporated. As if to infer that the loss of leverage had something to do with negotiating prowess on the Delta side or stupidity on the NWA side. This is very, very simple. The two companies decided that Delta would be the acquiring carrier. Once that occured, all that the Delta MEC needed to do was curry favor with management - which they did with scope language changes that allow NWA the ability to continue flying big iron internationally where most of the money is made. If NWA had been the acquiring company, the exact same thing could have been done by the NWA MEC. In fact we would have had to relax scope as well in order for DAL wide bodies to continue flying.
The offensive part of this for NWA folks is that the DAL scope change was required to keep NWA planes in the air and making a ton of money for the new Delta. But the DAL MEC thought they alone should get the money for this change that affected NWA. The classy thing to do would have been to escrow the monies collected after the triggering events allowed Delta pilots to actually receive the pay raises. In that way, the bar for everyone would have been raised for the new combined contract, and the Delta pilots would have acknowledged the huge value of NWA continuing to fly big iron international helping both balance sheets. That of course did not happen and I think NWA pilots were/are shocked at the treatment.
Carl
The offensive part of this for NWA folks is that the DAL scope change was required to keep NWA planes in the air and making a ton of money for the new Delta. But the DAL MEC thought they alone should get the money for this change that affected NWA. The classy thing to do would have been to escrow the monies collected after the triggering events allowed Delta pilots to actually receive the pay raises. In that way, the bar for everyone would have been raised for the new combined contract, and the Delta pilots would have acknowledged the huge value of NWA continuing to fly big iron international helping both balance sheets. That of course did not happen and I think NWA pilots were/are shocked at the treatment.
Carl
Carl, and others... deep breath... divorce yourself from emotion for one moment before you respond either in your head or here, and think about this word.... interim... THINK about what it means....
As a wise man once said, "That's all I've got to say about that"
04-18-2008, 04:19 PM
#167
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Originally Posted by Eric Stratton
tsquare what is that ugly creature in your picture. hang in their maybe one of you future brothers can kill it for you...
04-18-2008, 04:45 PM
#168
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: DAL-S, B
Posts: 126
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
But the DAL MEC thought they alone should get the money for this change that affected NWA........ That of course did not happen and I think NWA pilots were/are shocked at the treatment.
I have to say, I am really impressed with how impassioned you are in defending your MEC and pilot group. I sincerely commend you for that - there are few greater qualities in a man than loyalty.
From what Lee Moak (DAL MEC Chair) has said, your above statement is incorrect. The NWA MEC was invited (as well as DALPA) by DAL management to attend a meeting to discuss contract amendments. The NWA MEC never returned DAL's calls, and did not show up to the meeting. Thus, DALPA and DAL Management forged a contract, and the rest is an unfortunate history. I can't tell you what would have happened at a joint meeting - we will never know - but they were invited, and no one at DALPA felt they were entitled to anything.
That being said, I totally understand why the NWA Pilots are feeling left out, and finding it difficult to have blind faith that they will be included in a contract between now and the time the merger goes thru. (Imagine how much wasted time and energy we all spent bickering over this if a contract is signed in the next few months and this was all just semantics!!!!
) I do get where you're coming from though, and I'm sure we would be feeling the same way if the shoe was on the other foot. But it seems that the blame does not rest with DALPA, as much as I know that is a much easier place to point the finger than at your own MEC leadership...I know you're not asking my opinion, but from my perspective, I think I'd be looking at making two difficult decisions... Truly, I am not trying to incite to riot here, but genuinely, from an outsider's perspective, I would recall your MEC. We're starting to see over and over, where your MEC has dispersed complete misinformation, and personally I've been pretty embarrassed at their lack of professionalism in handling this situation. (Their statement after the merger announcement, their press conference, even early on pointing fingers at DALPA publicly when DALPA was issuing "no fault" statements, etc.)
Anyway, if I haven't offended you too terribly yet, I would also try to do everything I could to attempt to believe that the Delta Pilots are as good as their word. In my experience thus far, this is a great pilot group with an incredible amount of integrity. I know your pilot group has been screwed with in the past, and so I understand your skepticism, but I truly believe if you give Delta & DALPA a chance, you'll be pleasantly surprised. Second perhaps to your pilot group, no one wants to make this transition as quick, painless and beneficial for you guys, more than the DAL pilots.
04-18-2008, 04:48 PM
#169
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Originally Posted by E1Out
Carl,
I have to say, I am really impressed with how impassioned you are in defending your MEC and pilot group. I sincerely commend you for that - there are few greater qualities in a man than loyalty.
From what Lee Moak (DAL MEC Chair) has said, your above statement is incorrect. The NWA MEC was invited (as well as DALPA) by DAL management to attend a meeting to discuss contract amendments. The NWA MEC never returned DAL's calls, and did not show up to the meeting. Thus, DALPA and DAL Management forged a contract, and the rest is an unfortunate history. I can't tell you what would have happened at a joint meeting - we will never know - but they were invited, and no one at DALPA felt they were entitled to anything.
That being said, I totally understand why the NWA Pilots are feeling left out, and finding it difficult to have blind faith that they will be included in a contract between now and the time the merger goes thru. (Imagine how much wasted time and energy we all spent bickering over this if a contract is signed in the next few months and this was all just semantics!!!!) I do get where you're coming from though, and I'm sure we would be feeling the same way if the shoe was on the other foot. But it seems that the blame does not rest with DALPA, as much as I know that is a much easier place to point the finger than at your own MEC leadership...
I know you're not asking my opinion, but from my perspective, I think I'd be looking at making two difficult decisions... Truly, I am not trying to incite to riot here, but genuinely, from an outsider's perspective, I would recall your MEC. We're starting to see over and over, where your MEC has dispersed complete misinformation, and personally I've been pretty embarrassed at their lack of professionalism in handling this situation. (Their statement after the merger announcement, their press conference, even early on pointing fingers at DALPA publicly when DALPA was issuing "no fault" statements, etc.)
Anyway, if I haven't offended you too terribly yet, I would also try to do everything I could to attempt to believe that the Delta Pilots are as good as their word. In my experience thus far, this is a great pilot group with an incredible amount of integrity. I know your pilot group has been screwed with in the past, and so I understand your skepticism, but I truly believe if you give Delta & DALPA a chance, you'll be pleasantly surprised. Second perhaps to your pilot group, no one wants to make this transition as quick, painless and beneficial for you guys, more than the DAL pilots.
I have to say, I am really impressed with how impassioned you are in defending your MEC and pilot group. I sincerely commend you for that - there are few greater qualities in a man than loyalty.
From what Lee Moak (DAL MEC Chair) has said, your above statement is incorrect. The NWA MEC was invited (as well as DALPA) by DAL management to attend a meeting to discuss contract amendments. The NWA MEC never returned DAL's calls, and did not show up to the meeting. Thus, DALPA and DAL Management forged a contract, and the rest is an unfortunate history. I can't tell you what would have happened at a joint meeting - we will never know - but they were invited, and no one at DALPA felt they were entitled to anything.
That being said, I totally understand why the NWA Pilots are feeling left out, and finding it difficult to have blind faith that they will be included in a contract between now and the time the merger goes thru. (Imagine how much wasted time and energy we all spent bickering over this if a contract is signed in the next few months and this was all just semantics!!!!
) I do get where you're coming from though, and I'm sure we would be feeling the same way if the shoe was on the other foot. But it seems that the blame does not rest with DALPA, as much as I know that is a much easier place to point the finger than at your own MEC leadership...I know you're not asking my opinion, but from my perspective, I think I'd be looking at making two difficult decisions... Truly, I am not trying to incite to riot here, but genuinely, from an outsider's perspective, I would recall your MEC. We're starting to see over and over, where your MEC has dispersed complete misinformation, and personally I've been pretty embarrassed at their lack of professionalism in handling this situation. (Their statement after the merger announcement, their press conference, even early on pointing fingers at DALPA publicly when DALPA was issuing "no fault" statements, etc.)
Anyway, if I haven't offended you too terribly yet, I would also try to do everything I could to attempt to believe that the Delta Pilots are as good as their word. In my experience thus far, this is a great pilot group with an incredible amount of integrity. I know your pilot group has been screwed with in the past, and so I understand your skepticism, but I truly believe if you give Delta & DALPA a chance, you'll be pleasantly surprised. Second perhaps to your pilot group, no one wants to make this transition as quick, painless and beneficial for you guys, more than the DAL pilots.
04-18-2008, 05:16 PM
#170
Looking for a laugh
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,099
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
The offensive part of this for NWA folks is that the DAL scope change was required to keep NWA planes in the air and making a ton of money for the new Delta. But the DAL MEC thought they alone should get the money for this change that affected NWA. The classy thing to do would have been to escrow the monies collected after the triggering events allowed Delta pilots to actually receive the pay raises. In that way, the bar for everyone would have been raised for the new combined contract, and the Delta pilots would have acknowledged the huge value of NWA continuing to fly big iron international helping both balance sheets. That of course did not happen and I think NWA pilots were/are shocked at the treatment.
Carl
Carl
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