Hey, Delta pilots. Quick question.
04-15-2008 | 05:35 AM
#21
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2005
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Eric,
This has been beaten to DEATH. Scope was relaxed because NWA's international flying would have exceeded our scope limits. They would have had to stop flying nearly all of their international flights to comply. Therefore, we relaxed our scope language to ensure the 747s and A330s would still operate. That, after all is the main reason for this merger. There is NO scope giveaways with RJs. I say again NO scope giveaway for RJs.
Got that? No scope give away for RJs. Now click your heels three times and say "there's no place like home".
This has been beaten to DEATH. Scope was relaxed because NWA's international flying would have exceeded our scope limits. They would have had to stop flying nearly all of their international flights to comply. Therefore, we relaxed our scope language to ensure the 747s and A330s would still operate. That, after all is the main reason for this merger. There is NO scope giveaways with RJs. I say again NO scope giveaway for RJs.
Got that? No scope give away for RJs. Now click your heels three times and say "there's no place like home".
how does nwa international flying exceed scope limits???? I've never heard of scope that doesn't allow international flying.
04-15-2008 | 05:43 AM
#22
Looking for a laugh
Joined: Feb 2008
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Because our scope clause says that international flying must be performed by DELTA pilots. Upon closing the merger, and before the SLI, the company would be Delta, governed by the DL CBA, but the 747s and A330s would be flown by non Delta SL pilots. This agreement allows the sharing of international block hours between DL and NW pilots.
04-15-2008 | 05:52 AM
#23
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We don't want arbitration even if the entire DAL pilot group personally believed that we are well-positioned for it. It is too much of a wild card and is an abrogation of leadership--it is pawning off the tough decisions to a neutral third-party whom everyone can blame if things don't turn out the way we wish. That said, my understanding is that with our ratio proposal, if NWA pilots feel they weren't getting proper credit for retirements, then they should just wait, as DALs next round of retirements would ensue a few years later.
Also, as I posted previously, the whole "NWA has lots of upcoming retirements, thus we need seniority credit for them" may be a red herring anyway, as the lure of equity $$, possible significant pay raises and DC contributions may be a strong enough draw to keep many pilots on the property to Age 65.
Of course absent a crystal ball it is hard to entirely be sure.
Also, as I posted previously, the whole "NWA has lots of upcoming retirements, thus we need seniority credit for them" may be a red herring anyway, as the lure of equity $$, possible significant pay raises and DC contributions may be a strong enough draw to keep many pilots on the property to Age 65.
Of course absent a crystal ball it is hard to entirely be sure.
of coarse without a crystal ball you don't give credit for all retirements but some. neither side can say everyone will leave or everyone will stay (even with those new incentives) it's compromise and it sounds like neither side was doing much of it.
04-15-2008 | 05:52 AM
#24
No longer cares
Joined: Mar 2008
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From: 767er Captain
by not agreeing to your SLI is staying on the boat? come on...if they had been fighting the contract as well then I would agree with you. that's like saying because you didn't agree to their demand in SLI then you stayed on the boat as well. that really just doesn't float...
I get it... doesn't float... now that's funny, I don't care who you are.
Just remember, it's smothered and covered ya'll
04-15-2008 | 06:12 AM
#25
Line Holder
Joined: Oct 2007
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How is keeping your relative seniority (within .5%) at the new combined carrier getting screwed? If you are at 50% on the NWA seniority list now... and 50% on the combined SL later... seems pretty fair to me. I think the NWA guys are letting their pride get in the way (i.e. I don't want to be junior to a DAL guy who got hired 1 or 2 years after me).
In my opinion, as long as the DAL guys directly in front of you/behind you (on the combined list) were at the 50% mark on DAL's list then it seems quite legitimate. Please explain why it should be otherwise.
In my opinion, as long as the DAL guys directly in front of you/behind you (on the combined list) were at the 50% mark on DAL's list then it seems quite legitimate. Please explain why it should be otherwise.
04-15-2008 | 06:13 AM
#26
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Because our scope clause says that international flying must be performed by DELTA pilots. Upon closing the merger, and before the SLI, the company would be Delta, governed by the DL CBA, but the 747s and A330s would be flown by non Delta SL pilots. This agreement allows the sharing of international block hours between DL and NW pilots.
is their any kind of date that says when that flying must be done by delta pilots? I can see this growing into a big whipsaw between nwa and delta pilots.
04-15-2008 | 06:27 AM
#27
Need More Callouts
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From: Unbridled Enthusiasm
I agree with that premise to a point. How's about getting merged and having guys that were hired 5-9 years later than you directly in front of you on the seniority list?
CAL's 87-90 hires are staring this in the face as well as UAL's 96-00 hires. 1-2 years is no big deal but the above numbers are.
04-15-2008 | 06:34 AM
#28
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2007
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From: 757/767
didn't you guys just push the nwa pilots out of the life boat considering you both had agreed upon a "joint" contract but because nwa didn't bend over for what "you" thought was fair in SLI you pushed them out and said start treading water...
I'm curious how delta felt about the usair/americawest seniority list?
I'm curious how delta felt about the usair/americawest seniority list?
Answer to second question: I fail to see you point. The USair/AWA debacle was the the result of an arbitrator's decision. I refuse to put my future in the hands of a bureaucrat who doesn't have to live with the decision he makes for the rest of his life. In addition, comparing USAir/AWA to DelWest is apples and oranges for a host of reasons.
Who do you work for again? I see you stoke the flame fires on all sides but I'm curious whats in it for you other than entertainment.
04-15-2008 | 07:11 AM
#29
Line Holder
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 522
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This seems to be a recurring problem with you. You like to stir the pot without any real understanding of the issues. Do me, and everyone else a favor and find a copy of your Pilot's Contract (dust it off since you've apparently never read it.) Now read the section on Scope and you will find that there are all sorts of things in there that have nothing to do with RJs. We are going to have enough problems with this merger without someone who is ignorant of the issues trying to instigate dissention between the two groups with false information.
04-15-2008 | 07:36 AM
#30
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How is keeping your relative seniority (within .5%) at the new combined carrier getting screwed? If you are at 50% on the NWA seniority list now... and 50% on the combined SL later... seems pretty fair to me. I think the NWA guys are letting their pride get in the way (i.e. I don't want to be junior to a DAL guy who got hired 1 or 2 years after me).
In my opinion, as long as the DAL guys directly in front of you/behind you (on the combined list) were at the 50% mark on DAL's list then it seems quite legitimate. Please explain why it should be otherwise.
In my opinion, as long as the DAL guys directly in front of you/behind you (on the combined list) were at the 50% mark on DAL's list then it seems quite legitimate. Please explain why it should be otherwise.
relative seniority would be fair for the moment but for the airline that is expecting a lot of retirements in the near future it become a disadvantage for them down the road and an advantage to the other airline.
look at the usair/america west seniority. a lot of people feel usair got the shaft because some 17 year pilots were put behind late 90's and early 2000's pilots due to relative seniority. those usair pilots could have expected rather quick movement because the average age of usair was around 53. that movement has changed due to the intergration.
this is similar to that but on a smaller scale.
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