How do you learn from NWA-Republic merger?
04-16-2008, 07:51 AM
#11
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Position: 75/76ER FO
Posts: 67
Originally Posted by AV8ER13
Throw a Blue Book in there as well, I am sure they will have an even different point of view. They got to watch the two sides differ...
Ugly..
04-16-2008, 04:28 PM
#12
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Position: 747-400 Captain
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Mike,
If it is all the same to you, I'd prefer to do it right here so that the Delta guys who are interested can hear the history as well.
So let's begin. In 1986 Northwest Airlines and Republic Airlines had roughly the same number of pilots. Northwest fleet consisted of 747-400, 747-200, DC-10, 757, and 727. Republic fleet consisted of 757, 727 and a very large number of DC-9's. NWA purchased Republic for 880 million in cash for 100% of the company's shares. Pre merger price of Republic stock was 4 dollars per share. Purchase price was 16 dollars per share.
Between 1969 and 1979 Republic hired over 1200 pilots. In that same time frame Northwest hired none. Republic's merger proposal was date of hire which would have put 1200 pilots senior to every Northwest pilot hired after 1979. Northwest's merger proposal was a rather complex ratio that would have put a number of Republic pilots with earlier hire dates behind Northwest pilots with later hire dates.
The arbitrator's decision was short and to the point:
The list was straight date of hire. (Personal thought: prior to the merger, my seniority number was about 1200. After the seniority integration, my new number was 3750 even though we both had roughly the same number of pilots. When I saw my new number I actually had to sit down because I felt ill). The arbitrator's decision continued:
Due to the vast imbalances created with a date of hire list, conditions and restrictions are included. A snapshot of each airline's fleet was taken and a certain number of pre-merger seats were protected as follows:
1. Certain pre-merger NWA pilot seats were protected to be bid only by Northwest pilots for 20 years. Any growth above the protected seats will be shared on a 1 for 1 basis for 20 years.
2. Certain pre-merger Republic pilot seats were protected to be bid only by Republic pilots for 20 years. Any growth above the protected seats will be shared on a 1 for 1 basis for 20 years.
3. No bump - No flush protections.
And that was it.
My progression to my position today happened about 2 years later than the projections showed would have happened without a merger. Due to the subsequent purchase of additional wide body aircraft by NWA after the merger and the requisite growth sharing, over 500 former Republic pilots have retired as Captains on the 747, DC-10 or A330. When the 20 year fence came down in 2006, the top 400 pilots on the NWA seniority list were former Republic pilots. Today the top 229 pilots on the NWA seniority list are former Republic pilots.
All of the above are the dry facts (except for my parenthetical views). A lexus/nexus search for the arbitration award of Judge Thomas Roberts will yield the award for you to read for yourself.
This should get the discussion started if anyone is interested.
Carl
If it is all the same to you, I'd prefer to do it right here so that the Delta guys who are interested can hear the history as well.
So let's begin. In 1986 Northwest Airlines and Republic Airlines had roughly the same number of pilots. Northwest fleet consisted of 747-400, 747-200, DC-10, 757, and 727. Republic fleet consisted of 757, 727 and a very large number of DC-9's. NWA purchased Republic for 880 million in cash for 100% of the company's shares. Pre merger price of Republic stock was 4 dollars per share. Purchase price was 16 dollars per share.
Between 1969 and 1979 Republic hired over 1200 pilots. In that same time frame Northwest hired none. Republic's merger proposal was date of hire which would have put 1200 pilots senior to every Northwest pilot hired after 1979. Northwest's merger proposal was a rather complex ratio that would have put a number of Republic pilots with earlier hire dates behind Northwest pilots with later hire dates.
The arbitrator's decision was short and to the point:
The list was straight date of hire. (Personal thought: prior to the merger, my seniority number was about 1200. After the seniority integration, my new number was 3750 even though we both had roughly the same number of pilots. When I saw my new number I actually had to sit down because I felt ill). The arbitrator's decision continued:
Due to the vast imbalances created with a date of hire list, conditions and restrictions are included. A snapshot of each airline's fleet was taken and a certain number of pre-merger seats were protected as follows:
1. Certain pre-merger NWA pilot seats were protected to be bid only by Northwest pilots for 20 years. Any growth above the protected seats will be shared on a 1 for 1 basis for 20 years.
2. Certain pre-merger Republic pilot seats were protected to be bid only by Republic pilots for 20 years. Any growth above the protected seats will be shared on a 1 for 1 basis for 20 years.
3. No bump - No flush protections.
And that was it.
My progression to my position today happened about 2 years later than the projections showed would have happened without a merger. Due to the subsequent purchase of additional wide body aircraft by NWA after the merger and the requisite growth sharing, over 500 former Republic pilots have retired as Captains on the 747, DC-10 or A330. When the 20 year fence came down in 2006, the top 400 pilots on the NWA seniority list were former Republic pilots. Today the top 229 pilots on the NWA seniority list are former Republic pilots.
All of the above are the dry facts (except for my parenthetical views). A lexus/nexus search for the arbitration award of Judge Thomas Roberts will yield the award for you to read for yourself.
This should get the discussion started if anyone is interested.
Carl
04-17-2008, 04:30 AM
#14
Works Every Weekend
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: 737 ATL
Posts: 3,506
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
The arbitrator's decision was short and to the point:
The list was straight date of hire.
Due to the vast imbalances created with a date of hire list, conditions and restrictions are included.
This should get the discussion started if anyone is interested.
Carl
The list was straight date of hire.
Due to the vast imbalances created with a date of hire list, conditions and restrictions are included.
This should get the discussion started if anyone is interested.
Carl
I think I figured out that I don't want to go anywhere near a date of hire with fences solution. What a mess. No wonder there's bad feelings if you guys have been living with that thing every day for 20 years.
04-17-2008, 06:50 AM
#15
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Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Check Essential,
While it's hard to be completely objective on this, I have to agree with you. Republic got the seniority numbers, and Northwest got the fence protections from being displaced. Seniority numbers can't be arbitrated or interpreted. A series of conditions and restrictions CAN be parsed and dissected by one side who seeks to gain adavantage after the SLI.
My "objective" advice to Delta pilots is to fight hard against any SLI that is so unbalanced that it requires complex fences. Maybe fences for a year or two but nothing more. Whatever the pilot's final seniority number, it should speak for itself.
Carl
While it's hard to be completely objective on this, I have to agree with you. Republic got the seniority numbers, and Northwest got the fence protections from being displaced. Seniority numbers can't be arbitrated or interpreted. A series of conditions and restrictions CAN be parsed and dissected by one side who seeks to gain adavantage after the SLI.
My "objective" advice to Delta pilots is to fight hard against any SLI that is so unbalanced that it requires complex fences. Maybe fences for a year or two but nothing more. Whatever the pilot's final seniority number, it should speak for itself.
Carl
04-17-2008, 06:53 AM
#16
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 14
Originally Posted by Check Essential
Mike-
There is still friction to this day from that merger.
And "friction" is putting it mildly.
You asked a great question. But I think the reason this thread has received so few responses is that explaining pilot contract and seniority issues to an "outsider" is incredibly difficult. The complexities are daunting and if you don't understand some basic jargon and shorthand terminology it can be even more time consuming to try and fill you in.
If you're really interested in learning all the minutia of pilot seniority integration fights and joint contract negotiations, I would suggest a phone conversation or better yet a face to face discussion over a few beers. Its just too much to type in a forum post.
There is still friction to this day from that merger.
And "friction" is putting it mildly.
You asked a great question. But I think the reason this thread has received so few responses is that explaining pilot contract and seniority issues to an "outsider" is incredibly difficult. The complexities are daunting and if you don't understand some basic jargon and shorthand terminology it can be even more time consuming to try and fill you in.
If you're really interested in learning all the minutia of pilot seniority integration fights and joint contract negotiations, I would suggest a phone conversation or better yet a face to face discussion over a few beers. Its just too much to type in a forum post.
And, Carl, this is such incredible information to a novice who needs to get a handle on things. Thanks
04-17-2008, 06:57 AM
#17
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
CVG,
Actually I don't agree with you. I think our arbitrator did an incredibly difficult merger pretty well despite all the whining you hear. He took two airlines with a huge disparity in pay, aircraft size and dates of hire, and managed it so my career upgrade path was only delayed by two years while nearly 1000 Republic pilots retired off widebody aircraft due to shared growth.
Not all arbitration is horrible. It's just that so many folks simply cannot empathize with another group. That's probably why arbitration was invented.
That said, I do wish our groups could have done this deal outside arbitration. It would have been such a terrific kick start to the process of turning a shotgun wedding into a real family.
Carl
Actually I don't agree with you. I think our arbitrator did an incredibly difficult merger pretty well despite all the whining you hear. He took two airlines with a huge disparity in pay, aircraft size and dates of hire, and managed it so my career upgrade path was only delayed by two years while nearly 1000 Republic pilots retired off widebody aircraft due to shared growth.
Not all arbitration is horrible. It's just that so many folks simply cannot empathize with another group. That's probably why arbitration was invented.
That said, I do wish our groups could have done this deal outside arbitration. It would have been such a terrific kick start to the process of turning a shotgun wedding into a real family.
Carl
04-17-2008, 07:01 AM
#18
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by Mike Caputo
I'm still up for beers.
And, Carl, this is such incredible information to a novice who needs to get a handle on things. Thanks
And, Carl, this is such incredible information to a novice who needs to get a handle on things. Thanks
Carl
04-17-2008, 07:30 AM
#20
Line Holder
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: 75/76ER FO
Posts: 67
Originally Posted by TBoneF15
Now Carl...you've made 17 posts since yesterday evening. Time pressure? Really?
...Our more senior wide body guys get alot of time off!! At least we used to!
Last edited by makoshark72; 04-17-2008 at 07:47 AM.
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