CVG767A

It seems to me that if there's still "whining" after 22 years, the arbitrator did a lousy job of merging your lists.

The Western and Pan Am pilots were merged by relative seniority, by equipment. This protected everyone's position; there were no major upheavals, no one's career suffered, and there were few hard feelings. We certainly don't have separate camps of pilots within Delta, with none trusting the other.

Which group you're in- Original Delta, Pan Am, or Western, doesn't even merit a mention in the cockpit. It may come up in conversation, or it may not. Either way, it's a non-issue.

If you think that disparate pay was a complicating factor in the merger, consider that, at the time of the Delta/Western merger, a Delta L1011 engineer earned more than a Western DC10 captain. There were some problems (the Western guys' pay came up in stages, rather than at once; a bad policy, IMO), but overall, we became one team after the merger.

kmpflyer

Carl,

Just to set the record straight, NWA did NOT have 747-400's in their fleet in 1986. The aircraft didn't fly until 1988, and didn't enter passenger service with NWA until Feb 1989.

See http://www.boeing.com/commercial/747...ilestones.html

kmpflyer

Check Essential

Mike-
It'd be my pleasure to buy you a beer but I'm a Delta guy. That's why I suggested you talk to Carl if you wanted to concentrate on specifics of NWA/Republic from 1986. I just know the basic facts of that merger and that's about it. Carl or another Northwest guy could give you a lot more details and history and what its been like to work under the arbitrator's order.

I'll tell you this - I think the Delta and Northwest pilots will come together this summer and solve this problem. This and other Internet forums may make it sound like there's no hope but the truth of the matter is most of this stuff is posturing to get the advantage in the end game. Its my understanding the two negotiating committees weren't really that far apart when talks broke down. The line pilots at both airlines want this thing solved amicably. There's a lot of money to be made with this combination of airlines. Very little domestic overlap, so there's not much downside risk for junior pilots worried about their jobs and huge international synergies which have the potential to add a large number of the big jets we all want to fly. Truly the world's first global airline. Both pilot groups will benefit and we know it.

Its just my guess but I don't think your listeners in Minnesota need to worry about any significant economic disruptions as a result of this deal. The CEO's desk and a handful of the high-level bean counters might be moving to Atlanta but not much is gonna change at the MSP airport. In fact you will most likely see some growth and more jobs as a result of this.

Carl Spackler

kmpflyer,

You are right, thanks much for the correction. We were the launch customer and ordered the airplane in 1985 if memory serves, but that is not the same as having it on the property. Thanks again for the correction.

Carl

Carl Spackler

Do you really mean that the success of an arbitration is best defined by whether or not there is "whining" 22 years later? We'll all have to admonish the arbitrator that we will consider him a failure if there ends up being any future complaining.

By the way, was the Pan Am and Western integration done by an arbitrator, or was it just agreed to by the parties given that Pan Am and Western were on bankruptcy's doorstep? It's been so long I've forgotten.

Carl

CVG767A

That's not the best definition of successful arbitration, but it sure is a good indicator of poor arbitration if there is grumbling and hard feelings 22 years after the fact. Either those who are whining are habitual complainers, or they have a legitimate gripe. I'm guessing that it's the latter.

Western and Pan Am were both negotiated SLIs.

Mike Caputo

I suppose this is where I get a little annoying, but here goes...

I think you are right that this conversation should happen here. But I see news as "education" and I would like to teach lessons provide by those who can serve as teachers. You have some worthwhile lessons to impart. And it might reach a broader audience of both NWA and Delta employees to boot.

Just a request to consider chatting with me.

Carl Spackler

I think that is a big part of the problem here. Delta pilot's recent experience with mergers were with parts of airline's that were about to be liquidated. If the Western and Pan Am pilots felt that a specially formulated ratio was unfair, who cares. They had no leverage and it would have been easy for Delta to just say "take it or leave it." The mergers with NWA have all been arbitrated even though Republic Airlines in 1986 was an airline in dire financial straits. At the time of the merger's announcement, Republic stock price had dropped to $4 per share. The financial distress notwithstanding, NWA felt that Republic brought a terrific hub in Detroit and Memphis along with a large fleet of 100 to 125 seat aircraft which NWA did not have. Thus the merger was not done on the pretext of buying a competitor that was on death's door.

I think a lot of NWA folks think that Delta still thinks the merger should be done with the same ratio strategy used for airlines that were about to be liquidated. That perception is insulting, and it shows by the reaction of the NWA MEC after negotiating with DAL.

Carl

Carl Spackler

Mike,

I've had a bit of experience with media interviews during our many strikes at NWA over the years. Please don't take this personally, but overall I found the experience distasteful and not very constructive. I spoke "on background" a number of times to reporters only to have my identity revealed to management and other media sources. Not to mention a large number of misquotes - which is always the worst part.

There are a ton of smart people on this forum that I'm sure would interview very well, but I'm a little burned out on it.

Carl

slowplay

Your recollection of the facts is wrong in the case of Western. That airline was a growing, thriving airline at the time of the merger. Your attitude of "who cares" says a lot.

NWA's perception that they bring have some kind of "premium" over Delta pilots is insulting, and it is shown in their lack of ability to negotiate a deal (any deal).
NWA wants to count "shells" parked in the desert, rather than active jobs brought to the table.
NWA wants to count jobs created by the Delta staffing formula as something they brought to the table.
NWA wants to count A330 payrates as premium over 767 rates, even though they didn't bring those (or higher rates for the 744 and 742) to the table. It's that "premium" thing again.
NWA wants to capture all "their" attrition off the top, but doesn't want to be held to the same standard off the bottom when the DC-9's and 742's are parked.
NWA thinks that their pilots are entitled to Delta growth, but Delta pilots aren't entitled to NWA positions with 24.E.10.
NWA thinks that the greenbook seniority list inversion due to the Roberts award isn't a problem. That's because they'd all fill in the unfenced Delta 777 while the Whale was protected.

Oops, that's not perception. That's the reality the Delta MEC negotiated with. That's insulting. NWA wanted to address all their concerns. They didn't care about Delta concerns. And when it came to deal deadline time, the NWA MEC administration didn't negotiate. They went on vacation.